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Thread: Injustice to Scientists/Engineers Pay Revisions by successive CPCs

  1. #1
    Senior Member vnatarajan is on a distinguished road
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    Default Injustice to Scientists/Engineers Pay Revisions by successive CPCs

    Need for a Separate Pay Commssion for Scientific & National Survey Departments

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dear Scientists/ Engineers/ Technocrats/ parents of budding Scientists/ Engineers,

    As a retired senior Geoscientist of the country, I feel the successive Pay Commissions are repeatedly failing to appreciate the incentives and motivations as well as importance that are required to be imparted to the Scientists,Engineers,Technologists of the country serving the Govt., in the form of appropriate career growth and well structured pay- scales which in the least have to be on par with the Generalists. In fact they could be better.

    In the past several battles have taken place between the Scientists vs Generalists when the brain drain in the country was at the peak. Flexible Complementing was introduced in many Scientific Institutions & Laboratories and sciemtists/engineers had the opportunity to grow up to level 'H' which is equal to the lowermost HAG scale ie Rs 22400- 24500 or so. With increasing responsibility on the Nation's Scientists/ Engineers etc there is an urgent need to take the scales further beyond- to HAG plus levels and even beyond upto Secy/Cab Secy levels for the Heads of National Laboratories/ CSIR/ DRDO /NRSA/ISRO etc.


    (This time the Bureaucracy/ DoPT have seen to it that many higher scales are relegated to lower pay levels in the Pay Band PB4 instead of taking them to higher pay levels and CONSEQUENTLY the old (pre-2006)pensioners who retired in these scales are suffering, as they are being forced to draw lesser pension than what they are entitled to, much against the Govts' own Gazette notifications/ Supreme Court Judgements on pension equality/ even the Constitutional Rights under Articles 14 & 21. Many of these Scientists/ Engineers are of honoured Emeritus status, with National/ International fame & citations, National/ Global Award winners etc)).


    In some Scientific/ National Survey Departments, Cadre Review system for Career Growth was introduced, but the delays that occur due to Bureacratic interference and uncompromising Red Tapism is so long, the scientists/engineers become totally frustrated. They are the neglected lot.
    Few autonomous scientific Departments like DAE/ DOS could keep the morale high, mainly because their Chairmen are ex-officio Secretaries and hence they could take/ lead to independent decisions in many aspects of career growth of thier wards. Such departments, therefore, have become global achievers.

    TIme has come now for all Scientific/ Technological Institutions/ Organisations/ Departments to be headed by ex-officio Secretaries from Scientific/ Engineering streams so that they can become national/ global achievers. Better Pay-Scale/ better Career Growth need be assured. Nation's progress. development/ removal of poverty - all depend much on their contributions and not because of the Bureaucrats.


    THEREFORE IT IS HIGH TIME A SEPARATE PAY COMMISSION IS MOOTED OUT FOR THEM and FOR ALL SCIENTIFIC/ TECHNICAL UNITS OF GOVT. OF INDIA FROM HENCEFORTH.

    All Scientists/ Engineers/ Technocrats/ other sympathisers- may voice their opinions and demands with all seriousness please.

    Regards

    VNatarajan
    Retd Geoscientist/ President, Pensioiners' Forum, Chennai.
    Last edited by vnatarajan; 03-01-2009 at 12:19 PM.

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    Junior Member ssr is on a distinguished road
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    Default scientists and engineers are taken to devils island - the contract regime

    mr. natarajan, you have rightly demanded seperate pay commission for scientists and engineers. you people have retired with great respect, our generation also may escape with little considerations. but the future sci/engrs are going to suffer between govt and contractors since the Spc have recommended contract base appointments for sci/engr.

    Right now also such system is in force in our dept. In the same lab a engr with b.tech qlfn. and appointed thro' govt gets Rs.15600 as starting band pay. however in the same lab a engr with same qlfcn. appointed thro' a contractor gets only 10000 rs as his gross salary.
    though the contractor is paid 15000 by the govt he eats away rs.5000.

    How do you see the future?

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    Senior Member badri mannargudi is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssr View Post
    mr. natarajan, you have rightly demanded seperate pay commission for scientists and engineers. you people have retired with great respect, our generation also may escape with little considerations. but the future sci/engrs are going to suffer between govt and contractors since the Spc have recommended contract base appointments for sci/engr.

    Right now also such system is in force in our dept. In the same lab a engr with b.tech qlfn. and appointed thro' govt gets Rs.15600 as starting band pay. however in the same lab a engr with same qlfcn. appointed thro' a contractor gets only 10000 rs as his gross salary.
    though the contractor is paid 15000 by the govt he eats away rs.5000.

    How do you see the future?
    Dear friends!


    I seek leave to make a humble submission.
    Regular readers, particilpants in this Forum may be aware of the Respect Shri Natarajan and his likes command and the reason is not far from seeking.
    First, they are Senior Citizens.
    Second, all these retired persons have served Govt in respectful position(s).
    Addressing these stars as "..........you people" offends me.
    I could not resist myself from registering my protest.
    I beg a pordon if I am wrong.
    With regards,
    Badri

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    Senior Member vnatarajan is on a distinguished road
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    Dear Mr SSR

    I fully understand your feelings and frustration.

    With the so called ideals and practices of "New Economy" "Free Economy" "Globalisation" etc permeating into the developing and underdeveloped countries, such calamities and accidents will happen at all levels in different ways.

    For example if a Govt. Department outsources any task, it affects the socialistic ideal of a developing democratic country like ours greatly, because the employment opportunities of aspiring professionals/ other would be greatly affected. Whereas till yesterday in a country like US, this strategy of "outsourcing" was a great source of profit. But today, the same strategy has come for great criticism - even an election issue and will there be reversal? I am not sure.

    Coming to contracting a job by a Govt. agency in our country, almost like "In sourcing?",
    your demand has to be made to the contractor who pays you less than blaming the Govt. who is paying more. Your bargain with the contractor has to be more aggressive!
    YOU MUST NOT UNDERSELL YOUSELF TO THE CONTRACTOR, THE CONTRACTOR MUST NOT UNDERBID TO THE GOVT., AND THE GOVT. MUST BE TRANSPARENT ENOUGH TO ACT? AWARD ON MERITS.

    There is a need for a better coordination among the contract service providers/ its professionals - so that individual deesrving professionals are not driven to frustration in all such cases.

    I AM FOR EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK ( I agree with you on this point) at least at a minimum level- whether it is by/ for Govt. or by/ for Contract. Added features will entail higher payments which can not be deprecated.

    With more and more open-market features coming up even within Govt., I think future will not be good for freshers to get employed in Govt. departments engaging scientists & engineers wher such openings will be governed by several other socio-economic factors.

    But openings/ opportunities in private sector will be much more if our Nation's growth maintains its momentum and for this you have to be profesdsionally capable, competent, versatile and qualified.

    Today my equals (imagining a fresher from IIT is being paid 45k on entry wh is at least 50 times more than what a fresher of equal merit got 50 yrs back and more so 10 times what was 20 yrs back and is 3 times more than what was 5 yrs back. EVEN AFTER NEUTRALISING FOR ALL FACTORS like cost of living etc, the remunerations are well on rise in India- whereas in US the same 45K dollars is being paid to a meritorious MS scholar- wh was the same even 15 yrs back- though the cost of living has gone up by 3 times at least!- I Mean to say we are better.
    SO FUTURE DEPENDS ON HOW OUR NATION GROWS- HOW THE GDP GROWS- HOW THE PROFESSIONALS AVIAL THE OPPORTUNITIES wh will be quite competetive!.

    vnatarajan
    Last edited by vnatarajan; 04-01-2009 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badri mannargudi View Post
    Dear friends!


    I seek leave to make a humble submission.
    Regular readers, particilpants in this Forum may be aware of the Respect Shri Natarajan and his likes command and the reason is not far from seeking.
    First, they are Senior Citizens.
    Second, all these retired persons have served Govt in respectful position(s).
    Addressing these stars as "..........you people" offends me.
    I could not resist myself from registering my protest.
    I beg a pordon if I am wrong.
    With regards,
    Badri
    I beg a pardon for using such a word while addressing a senior scientist. However it is not intentional rather it may be a usual use of web language. I know very well of dr. natarajan and his status. I once again peg a pardon with mr badriji, and mr.natarajan. I am sure I will be careful in future correspondences.

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    Junior Member ssr is on a distinguished road
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    Sir,
    I fully agree with you in your view thet A technocrat should not under sell himself to the contractor. However the contractor is constrained by the charges he quoted per engineer and the quotation he submitted is constrained by the competition he has with the fellow contarctors and finally the technocrat because of unemployment settles for under selling.
    My humble view is " the philosophy of market economy" is the root cause for this.
    In the market economythe value of a particular thing or service is decided by the availabilty the same Vs. the number of purchaser/user. If sellers are more the price goes down and the buyers are more the price goes up. Finally the govt policy that decides the value of a technocrat. If the govt fix up amin. value for a technocrat he wont be pushed to the corner for under selling.

    I would like to put up another issue in our scientific field, which may be discussed with open heart:

    the issue is "extending the services of the seniors". If you see in any dept. the seniors dont get retired after their retirment. they visit office in the provision of consultant or extension of services. Is it right? Is it not affecting the prospectus of existing seniors?. Kindly through light on the merits and demerits of this system of the govt.

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    Senior Member vnatarajan is on a distinguished road
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    Dear SSR

    Unless it is for a specific or specialised requirement, I am totally opposed to this. I would like to be enlightened on this aspect before subjecting my comments to greater scrutiny! It may not be correct to pass any general comment without knowing the full facts.

    For eg., in my erstwhile Deptt, during my tenure of over 36 years of service, there were hardly two cases of extensions of services of scientists- say for example first was a case of the second-most senior in the Deptt whose services were retained for an year to assist the Director General as there were too many retirements of such peers, and the second case was that of a Map & Cartographic speialist- scientist (specially trained abroad for such work of Geological Map Printing) who had no immediate replacement. MINE IS THE LARGEST SINGLE SCIENTIFIC DEPTT. IN THE COUNTRY (with about 3000 Group A scientists/engineers!).

    If "extending the services of the seniors" for individual benefits or for some favour, I and many of my peers will be against such a practice. IT IS GROSSLY UNETHICAL.

    In fact, after retirement, when some scientists want to criticise the functioning of our erstwhile Deptt., I make fun of them!. After all what they were doing while they were in service?

    What is the great thing they can achieve by criticising after retirement?

    Sure, sometimes when I am called to help provide ideas for futuristic activities, I do write or talk- but not because I want to !

    vnatarajan

    Reg. your first part, yes, there shd be a minimum floor price agreed upon by all (pl see my observation equal pay fro equal work etc- vendor/ buyer - for a minimum set of specifications. Beyond that will be the point of contention that develops. There more transparency is needed from both sides. '3G' Telecom matter?
    Last edited by vnatarajan; 04-01-2009 at 03:30 PM.

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    Respected sir,
    thanks for your frank opinion on this extension issue. Day by day it is increasing. I am not telling that 100% are for personal favour but majority are looking like that. Even if outstanding people are given chances there may be another outstanding person affected by not getting his due.

    Sir, if you don't mind I put up another issue which is burning in nature to your kind attention, also it is long pending issue in scientific depts.

    Before that I would like to thank you and the website for giving me the oppurtunity to present my view to a senior scientist of our country.

    The issue is neglecting the scientists/engineers based on qualification.
    Sir, I feel once a person joins scientific services in a particular grade his further career progression must be 100% depends on his deliveries. Instead there are rules saying a b.tech man with x number of ACR grades will go for DPC/assesment in 5 years and a m.tech man with the same number of ACR grades will go for DPC/assesment in 4 years and a doctorate with same number of acr grades will go for DPC in 3 years. why such descriminations?
    There are doctorates who could not delever a min. product and there are UGs who have delivered excellent products.

    One day the doctorates and PGs will run away for better packages by virtue of thier higher qualifications. but The Ugs are the people who work sincerely for the delivery of the projects/products till their ends.

    In this issue there are most affected persons, you might have heard 'the diploma engineers' who because of poverty entered polytechnics instead of engg. colleges. however they could work hard to attain a degree sometimes post graduate degree also. But most of the govt order says whenever a bonanza was announced "this is applicable to sci/engrs joined with Ug/Pg?doctorate degrees"

    The solution is simple as I told earlier the Qualification must merit a person to join a scientific service, further progress must be depending on his deliveries and knowledge only. Assuming "A scientist having higher qualification will have better knowledge" is not at all justifiable.

    I dont know whether you heard this rule for some time in DOS. The rule said "any additional qualification will be considered for special review to higher grades only when such qualifications are aquired after joining ISRO services". It took nearly eight years(1988 to 1996) for the dept to realize the negative part of this rule and they modified it to say. "If 1/3 rd of the tenure of additional qualification is in ISRO service it will be considered for special review to higher grades."
    But People like me (are affected during those eight years) are routed through a longer route in our career and now looking our juniors sitting in PB4 and we are waiting to get considered for PB4.

    I request you to share your kind opinion on this issue and may be if you are interested share with us your experience with such people who were suffering for want of higher qualifications.

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    Senior Member vnatarajan is on a distinguished road
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    Dear SSR

    You have raised a number of points and I do appreciate the spirit of the same. I had been on the Selection Committes of some of the Deptts you are familiar with/ may be including yours also as an outside Expert and on those occasions, at least I have not come across any Member citing the higher qlfns for weightage.

    Therefore malady lies in your recruitment/ promotion rules which needs proper amendments. As such all affected must rationally put across the valid explanations and get them through. After entry, it is the performance and the results/ achievements in terms of the assignments/ projects assigned that have to be given weightage and not the past qualifications which have to become history for six-monthly/ yearly reviews. I have at least not done so even within my department or outside as an Expert. Many dont do it.

    Let me answer your points:

    1."Qualification must merit a person to join a scientific service, further progress must be depending on his deliveries and knowledge only. Assuming "A scientist having higher qualification will have better knowledge" is not at all justifiable".

    Agreed to some extent -not universally true. Higher qualification vis a vis better knowledge should not be generalised. (What I knew as an Applied Geologist or Applied Geophysicist with a Master's Degree many of my colleagues with Pure Geology Degrees did not know. Vice versa also was true. This is among peers itself. STAs who were with Bachelor's Degrees were far below- justifiably- Depends).

    Perceptions would vary. So no debate.

    2."once a person joins scientific services in a particular grade his further career progression must be 100% depends on his deliveries. Instead there are rules saying a b.tech man with x number of ACR grades will go for DPC/assesment in 5 years and a m.tech man with the same number of ACR grades will go for DPC/assesment in 4 years and a doctorate with same number of acr grades will go for DPC in 3 years"

    Shall have to be reviewed. Only at entry time/ one time, such concession need be given. Higher qualifications achieved in-service can be rewarded by advance incremments. Accelerating for reviews needs a relook if the tasks assigned are of same category and type or team oriented. If higher qualified persons perform better, they can have better ACRs- nothing prevents them from writing their own assessments which will be reviewed/ graded- even this can give them the accelaration they deserve instead of granting such accelerations blindly based on qlfns.

    Scientists/ Engineers have a case to argue. Group/ Team morale and spirit will be at stake if the issue is not properly addressed/ rectified.

    "Even if outstanding people are given chances there may be another outstanding person affected by not getting his due."

    Again I may differ. My answer was for a specialised/ exceptional requirement. Outstanding Scientists are normally given Extra- Departmental assignments which are unquestionable. If such employment is routine and within the Departmental cadre, then it is not justifiable in ordinary circumstance. If suppose it is for a project to be completed within a few months and no replacemnt is ready, there cd be a valid justification.

    "There are doctorates who could not delever a min. product and there are UGs who have delivered excellent products"

    This happens everywhere- right from PM to the last Chaprasi. That is Govt. service. If it is Private Sector? IT sector? what makes us to cringe to Govt Service? simple answer is SECURITY of job! Second is - pl note we Scientists (I exclude some Engineers) are worthless outside Govt. Deptts,/ Govt. labs/ Institutions. Even --- do not --- at us once we retire whether it is the top-most Nuclear Scientist or top-most Chandrayan man. When I ask for a high Consulatation fee, clients run away as there are many who can undersell themselves! No client bothers about quality of work in our field!

    Neither we can get rid of the non-achieving PGs easily nor we can reward richly the performing UGs in any Deptt under normal circumstances..

    If there are greener pastures outside, one shd leave early in career- I hesitated to leave the Govt job early(say after brilliant qlfn etc) I had quite a few opportunities within/outside the country- and all the 36 yrs I debated the same way as u r doing now-I am retired now. Peaceful- but fighting for my/ others' Rightful Pensions!!!!!

    "any additional qualification will be considered for special review to higher grades only when such qualifications are aquired after joining ISRO services".
    If 1/3 rd of the tenure of additional qualification is in ISRO service it will be considered for special review to higher grades."

    I have not understood this point fully- may be I can answer it later!

    Cheers

    vnatarajan.

    PS: IN GOVT. LABS/ SCIENTIFIC DEPTTS: I DO AGREE AFTER THE ENTRY, THERE SHD BE STRICTLY UNIFORM NORMS ON PERFORMANCE/ RESULT/ ACHIEVEMENT BASED CRITERIA VIS A VIS THE TASKS/ PROJECTS/INDIVIDUAL ROLES ASSIGNED (again some cd be purely scientific work/ some cd be even semi or non-scientific work/some cd be data oriented- as a part of the project itself) GIVING DUE CREDENCE TO SELF APPRAISALS (often many do not know how to project themselves in eloquent english!!) WITHOUT BIAS FOR PROMOTIONS. MORE EXPERT MEMBERS FROM THE UNITS/DIVISIONS/DEPARTMENTS THE CANDIDATES BELONG TO ARE TO BE INCLUDED(ONE AS MEMBER/ ANOTHER AS OBSERVER) TO AVOID LOBBYING/ CRITICISM.SOME OF THE POINTS MADE OUT ABOVE NEED BE REVIEWED TO IMBIBE CONFIDENCE AMONG YOUNGER SCIENTISTS/ ENGINEERS WHO FORM THE BACKBONE FOR SUCCESS. UNIFORM GRADING TO TEAM BASED ON AVERAGE PERFORMANCE MAY BE THOUGHTOF. PROJECT LEADER'S/ COORDINATOR'S ASSESSMENT SHD BE RELATED TO THE AVERAGE GRADING OF ALL IN THE GROUP/TEAM. HIGHER/ INDIVIDUALISTIC ACHIEVEMENTS(WITHOUT AFFECTING THE ASSIGNED TASK)LIKE GETTING Ph D etc CAN BE REWARDED BY ADVANCE INCREMENTS.CERTAINLY NOT FOR ACCELERATING PROMOTIONS!
    Last edited by vnatarajan; 05-01-2009 at 03:13 PM. Reason: addition of text.

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    Junior Member ssr is on a distinguished road
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    Respected sir,

    Thanks a lot for spending much of your time to go through my views and offering a detailed clarifications on these issues.

    regarding the qualification issue, it is in force that the higher qlfn. people were/are given advantage in promotions, project alottment etc. irrespective of their capability/knowledge.
    There are cases of denying higher studies opurtunities to working guys for want of his service and non working guys were given chance of going for higher studies considering his idleness/absence doesnt affect project activities.
    I am not putting blame all leaders. there are directors who prefer working guys and there are leaders otherwise also. My only wish is if the policy is stable and stiff to favour people who deliver products, no leaders can go biased way.

    Regarding senior people roaming around the office even after 65years,
    I strongly put an argument that they are at mistakes if alternatives were not developed. Otherwise also they will be at mistake if they dont leave the chair to their juniors who were developed by them.
    You might have heard last year in the name of excellence awards lakhs of Govt funds were distributed to seniors retired years back. I suggest the best place for seniors would be the institutes/colleges/training centres where they can share their experience with the young generation to develop them for future services.

    Regarding the switching over to pvt services: Sir, my view is that it depends how one choose between money and piece of mind. My experience with pvt services was horrible but rewarding in terms of money. I worked 18 hours a day in my twenties. As I become aged I realized that I could not work in the same mode. hence I decided that govt service is peaceful service though the money is less.

    Reg rewarding performers, The SPC has done a good thing. the achievers will get performance based increments as a seperate incentive in addition to their normal pay. I hope the modalities have been worked out and soon going to be implemented. In that case also specific cases of biasing need to be avoided.

    I once again thanks you for spending your time for this discussion. I feel if some more people join here it will be more interesting to discuss.

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    Senior Member vnatarajan is on a distinguished road
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    Dear Mr SSR/ young Scientists/ Engineers,

    With every step you put forward in the right direction, it would mean your mind is getting clearer and clearer and certainly you will reap the benefits in fair time. I still fail to understand, why Scientist/ Engineers never act as good teams/ groups except in some Deptts- where achievements are better.

    Problem is many of them do not develop the managerial abilities or administrative capabilities or leadership qualities. Everyone tries to be in his shell of task or research and many times weaves a web around him. Consequently, there is always the danger of the teams being with a loose composition instead of being well-knit!

    I am making the above remark because nothing prevents any Project Leader to give equal importance and recognition to every team member (even if it is one or two or many) and if the goal is achieved, the honours/ credits/ rewards shd go to each and everyone equitably. Let everyone get the top grade including for himself! This had been my approach throughout my career. Always I have seen to it that my juniors get the best recognition- more than me.

    IF THE YOUNGER GENERATION OF SCIENTISTS/ ENGINEERS ARE TO BE RECKONED AS A FORCE IN THE COMING DECADES, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIELDS OF NUCLEAR TECH/SPACE TECH/ NATURAL RESOURCES SECTORS,PARTICULARLY IN THE GOVT. RUN ENTITIES, YOU HAVE TO ORGANISE YOURSELVES INTO A POWERFUL COHERENT BODY WHICH HAS THE STRENGTH AND WILL TO BARGAIN.

    For eg, you will see in the other important new Topic/ Theme opening up under the title Civil Services Reform II and already Mr R Sundaram another veteran Pensioner, has made his opening remarks after studying the concerned report of the Admin. Reforms Commssion by Mr Moily et al. I reproduce here a small extract from one of HIS paragraphs.

    " Although it talks about domain expertise it appears to ignore the rightful place of technologists, engineers, scientists and doctors ( medical) needed for delivering quality service to citizens as well as rendering policy advice to the political masters"

    Therefore, service/ remunerative aspects of Scientists/ Engineers in the next post- reform regime also may not be that bright unless all of you take note and act- act fast enough!

    vnatarajan
    Last edited by vnatarajan; 06-01-2009 at 07:09 AM.

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    Senior Member badri mannargudi is on a distinguished road
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    Dear friends,

    This refers to post #2155 from my friend, philosopher and guide shree vnatarajan;

    Each and every observation made therein deserves,"Akshara laksham.
    Having said that, in my view, most of our S.O Brothern spend most of their time in ensuring "work free of lapses/shortcoming", for, in the field of Scientific Research (in my view - and I may be wrong) there is no margin of errors. Even if one falls short off a few millimetres, the project would meet the same fate as that of "Columbia", it would would sink and the hapless S.O would fall into the well. (Araii Kinaru Thandudal). So in his anxiety to pluck all holes and loopholes, the officer would scarcely be left with any time to learn the intricacies of Adminstrative Skills. Yes, perhaps this is the reason as to why he has not come out of the shell .

    There are a few exceptions like my Mentor, Dr VBP(who showed much interest and displayed his knowledge -after studying and learning Rules and Regulations), Sudarshanajee.
    I wish my frinds in the field under discussion herein, to find time to learn the art of Administration, so that a day may come when they would have full autonomy to decide on all matters - including Budget related work.
    With regards,
    Badri

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    Senior Member vnatarajan is on a distinguished road
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    Dear Mr Badri/ friends

    Mr Badri has magnanimously defended the reason/ indiffrence on the part of the scientists etc to learn the art of administration or say rules/ regulations etc. Having been thin and thick among the Scientists/ Engineers of GSI (all Gr A/ above Cadres) nearly 3000in no, having spent over 36 years in such a great National Survey (no other Deptt can beat it for its compassionate treatment of all cadres!!!!),having had the privilege of knowing/ being the GURU (trainer for nearly half of the scientists at one time or other- being a founder Director/ Faculty Member of its Training Institute) and last but not the least having spent two HARD years as the Drafter/ Coordinator for its 2nd cadre review, I had the opportunity to learn many things related to science/ administration/ management etc.

    WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS IF YOU HAVE A WILL TO LEARN,YOU WILL FIND TIME TO DO SO- it cd be any subject.

    To become a leader, lead from the front in offence- and guard from the rear in defence!

    For e.g. I learnt many things from an Administrative Person say like Mr Badri- he was my OPPONENT- Union Leader of a powerful Group - when I was the HEAD of the Deptt and I had to face him with hostility many times- short of gheraoing. TODAY WE ARE GREAT FRIENDS- what more you will be surprised to know that he is the GENERAL SECY- live-wire of the very forum for which I am the PRESIDENT- &and he is Mr A V Mukuntharajan!!!

    Therfore. pl. develop some more faculties for yourself beyond your own specialisation in Science & Engineering so that you get prepared to overcome the obstacles that may come for your Career Growth/ Remunerations in the coming Decades.

    Pl do not mistake. My intention is purely to inspire you all.

    Regards

    vnatarajan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vnatarajan View Post
    Dear Mr SSR/ young Scientists/ Engineers,

    With every step you put forward in the right direction, it would mean your mind is getting clearer and clearer and certainly you will reap the benefits in fair time. I still fail to understand, why Scientist/ Engineers never act as good teams/ groups except in some Deptts- where achievements are better.

    Problem is many of them do not develop the managerial abilities or administrative capabilities or leadership qualities. Everyone tries to be in his shell of task or research and many times weaves a web around him. Consequently, there is always the danger of the teams being with a loose composition instead of being well-knit!

    I am making the above remark because nothing prevents any Project Leader to give equal importance and recognition to every team member (even if it is one or two or many) and if the goal is achieved, the honours/ credits/ rewards shd go to each and everyone equitably. Let everyone get the top grade including for himself! This had been my approach throughout my career. Always I have seen to it that my juniors get the best recognition- more than me.

    IF THE YOUNGER GENERATION OF SCIENTISTS/ ENGINEERS ARE TO BE RECKONED AS A FORCE IN THE COMING DECADES, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIELDS OF NUCLEAR TECH/SPACE TECH/ NATURAL RESOURCES SECTORS,PARTICULARLY IN THE GOVT. RUN ENTITIES, YOU HAVE TO ORGANISE YOURSELVES INTO A POWERFUL COHERENT BODY WHICH HAS THE STRENGTH AND WILL TO BARGAIN.

    For eg, you will see in the other important new Topic/ Theme opening up under the title Civil Services Reform II and already Mr R Sundaram another veteran Pensioner, has made his opening remarks after studying the concerned report of the Admin. Reforms Commssion by Mr Moily et al. I reproduce here a small extract from one of HIS paragraphs.

    " Although it talks about domain expertise it appears to ignore the rightful place of technologists, engineers, scientists and doctors ( medical) needed for delivering quality service to citizens as well as rendering policy advice to the political masters"

    Therefore, service/ remunerative aspects of Scientists/ Engineers in the next post- reform regime also may not be that bright unless all of you take note and act- act fast enough!

    vnatarajan
    Respected sir,
    the first line of your message escalates the inner courage simply. regarding the scientists acting as a team doesnt apply to our dept, where team work is the day to day manthra. I wont say everyone would be in the team work, but majority are for team spirit and thats how we achieve things. In the recent chandrayaan work I happened to be in the team (meant for making one of the 11 payloads) which turned a great success. the co-operation to the team work from the youngest new memebers were excellent.

    nothing prevents any Project Leader to give equal importance and recognition to every team member

    This statement of yours , I am sorry to say more idealistic. In practical cases it is not so. biasing biasing biasing... may be in any form.

    YOU HAVE TO ORGANISE YOURSELVES INTO A POWERFUL COHERENT BODY WHICH HAS THE STRENGTH AND WILL TO BARGAIN.


    Sir, I would like to bring to your notice a very recent incident happened.
    there was a joint representation from all including senior to junior to reduce prices of the canteen items. the seniors got severe banging from the top.

    More over it is being told that group A service officers should not join together on any issue.

    finally everyone has the will to act but where is the way?
    I request seniors like yourself may take the lead in such movement...
    Last edited by ssr; 06-01-2009 at 10:08 PM. Reason: words left

  15. #15
    Senior Member vnatarajan is on a distinguished road
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    Dear Mr SSR

    Nice summary u have made out. Overall, the views expressed by you/ many like you can not be disputed.

    In every organisation, ther are some black sheep who do benefit and there are some bright and brave who lose. But if you have the freedom to work, you have the respect/ regard for your work/ your merit - irrespective of your post/ rank in the organisation/ and you enjoy the challenges you are confronted with (more often you are selected to be in the team only for that purpose- as a builder/ binder/ benefactor (not beneficiary))- then I think you will not be disappointed.

    Yes. In every system of promotion/ career acceleration based on interviews etc there would be some drawbacks- unless the Chairperson is impartial/ watchful/ besides being eminent- and your own Head who is there to present/ defend your case is supportive.Many scientists/ engineers do not present their own summaries properly/ powerfully/ seriously in their own self-assessments. Many do it in a shippshod last minute effort. As an outside expert sometimes I had taken the liberty of pointing out to the individual- an opportunity given to you to project "truthfully" is lost!. At the same time, there are seniors who can "overdo" theiur assessments utilising the contributions of the juniors to enhance/ glorify their data. That is where the role of Leader/ Manager/ Supervisor comes in to moderate!.- That is the reason in my organisation- I opposed the FC system- and stuck to Cadre Review, which I drafted and got it through ( I took two years and achieved the objective in 1992. Since then 17 years have lapsed and NO SERIOUS EFFORTS COULD BE MADE TO EITHER DO FURTHER CADRE REVIEWS or INTRODUCE FLEXIBLE_ COMPLIMENTING system or any other REVIEW system!.

    (Where the Orgn. is multi-disciplinary- projects are multi-disciplinary- inputs are multi-disciplinary, comparisons and rivalry crop up in the DPCs and consequently some meritorious candidates may lose due to none of their faults).

    Best of luck. Do not carry the monkeys (tensions ) of others on your shoulders. Try to shake them off at once. Promoting a deserving/ meritorious scientist in time is the 'monkey' of the boss or the board- and if they do not shake it off, THEY WILL SUFFER THE TENSION-NOT THE Scientist. This happens in many cases as they have to face the criticism sooner or later.

    Cheers

    vnatarajan

    PS: Nothing prevents you forming your own association of scientists/engineers. Pl chk similar associations formed in several organisatins- for eg Geological Survey of India Scientific Officers' Association (GSISOA)- your main theme shd be WELFARE- start with a good Mem of Articles- register as a society etc- have a group insurance/ cooperative scheme to bind you all- and then build a corpus. You can go to nearest GSI office and contact any middle level officer and he will be able to give you some info. (Many officers in GSI all over India- 35 to 40 yrs age - may remember me very well and they would be very helpful. I was one of the active member/ office holder of GSISOA- I hope it still survives in some shape!!!!).
    Last edited by vnatarajan; 20-01-2009 at 09:13 AM. Reason: additions

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