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Thread: Stepping up of Pay

  1. #81
    Member susant270774 is on a distinguished road
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    The SO/AAO of CAG have got the upgraded fixation or any department has got this as MOF finance has idicatively stated that the this fixation is only applicable to assistant of CSS in the case of SO of defecnce account. How they have now agrred to such fixation to SO of CAG depatment. In the circular of CAG no reference has been indicated that the MOF has been consulted or not. They cannot give such fixation without consulting Implementataion cell of MOF. Defeinitly they have consulted the MOF . Now they question arise why they have not issuing a general order so that this can be made applicable to all ministieries if they give the said fixation two department.
    Kindly comment senior member

  2. #82
    Senior Member Victor is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by susant270774 View Post
    The SO/AAO of CAG have got the upgraded fixation or any department has got this as MOF finance has idicatively stated that the this fixation is only applicable to assistant of CSS in the case of SO of defecnce account. How they have now agrred to such fixation to SO of CAG depatment. In the circular of CAG no reference has been indicated that the MOF has been consulted or not. They cannot give such fixation without consulting Implementataion cell of MOF. Defeinitly they have consulted the MOF . Now they question arise why they have not issuing a general order so that this can be made applicable to all ministieries if they give the said fixation two department.
    Kindly comment senior member
    The CAG is an independent body and can take its own desicions as far its staff is concerned. CAG is not under the Ministry of Finance.

    Victor

  3. #83
    Junior Member sridhardevi2000 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by spenke View Post
    Dear All
    CAG has issued orders fixation of pay and stepping up of pay on the lines of pay fixation done to the Assts for the upgraded posts of Section Officers/AAO in IA&AD drawing grade pay of Rs 4800. I am unable to attch files as it exceeds the maximum limit of file size.
    Dear Spenke,
    It is very greatful to you, if you could forward the orders to my email id (sridhardevi2000@gmail.com)

  4. #84
    Junior Member bhaskar96 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The CAG is an independent body and can take its own desicions as far its staff is concerned. CAG is not under the Ministry of Finance.

    Victor
    Yes, CAG is an independent body, but still pay the employees under CCS(RP)Rules 2008 and any clarification with regard to pay need to be given by the Imp.Cell. Hence, there is no harm in sending a RTI request seeking the following from CAG:
    1. Full copies of the file including that of the Order sheet notings regarding the sanction of the said circular (including the circumstances and clarifications sought to them by their offices)

    2. If there was any approval sought from the MoF, the same can also be sought

    though these will again may not be treated as clarifications by our departments, however, the same can be kept for going to CAT

  5. #85
    Senior Member Victor is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhaskar96 View Post
    Yes, CAG is an independent body, but still pay the employees under CCS(RP)Rules 2008 and any clarification with regard to pay need to be given by the Imp.Cell. Hence, there is no harm in sending a RTI request seeking the following from CAG:
    1. Full copies of the file including that of the Order sheet notings regarding the sanction of the said circular (including the circumstances and clarifications sought to them by their offices)

    2. If there was any approval sought from the MoF, the same can also be sought

    though these will again may not be treated as clarifications by our departments, however, the same can be kept for going to CAT

    Yes I agree with you.

    But the larger issue is why only the employee who is "promoted" during the golden period of "2.1.2006 to 30.8.2008" should get the pre-revised upgraded scale as a birth right, while the existing employees in the promoted grade get the pay fixation as per the lower pre-revised scale and can get the benefit of stepping up only with reference to the junior employee (if any).

    Why can't all employees in the grade get the pre-revised scale w.e.f. 1.1.2006 itself, since the recommendations of the 6CPC are effective from 1.1.2006. In a scenario where there have been no promotions during the golden period, the existing employees are not eligible for stepping up of pay.

    Victor

  6. #86
    Member susant270774 is on a distinguished road
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    The point raised by me in different point is also relevent to the case , the same shall be also for the knowledge of the senior member which will help definitly,

    you have got the point that assistant are given undue benefit but why other with same similar situation has not extended the benefit. Now for your knowledge that SO/AAO of CAG department is also got the same benefit . I am giving some point which are very important in the case of fixation of the upgraded scale which not implemented as per 6th pC recommendation . Since 6th pC has already included the bunching benefit in the fitment chart for each & every case of fixation but whioch wrongly implemented by MOF by rule 4A which is not at all consonance of the 6th PC recommendation . So kindly go through the 6th PC recommendation & i am giving the point which is carefully to be looked into.
    As per 6th Pay commission report
    Point 1.2.18. The Commission has recommended upgradation ofcertain specific categories like Nurses, Teachers, Constabulary and Postmen keeping in view the important functions being discharged by these categories.
    Point 1.2.20 Where considered necessary, the Commission has also recommended upgradations of individual posts in order to remove these anomalies. All the individual upgradations recommended by theCommission shall, in no case, take effect before 1.1.2006.
    Point 1.2.25 .All the recommendations are inter-connected and need to be treated as an organic whole. Partial implementation of these recommendations will destroy the underlying spirit, break the common thread and bring in several anomalies and inconsistencies. The Report would, therefore, need to betreated in a holistic manner and the recommendationsconsidered as a package
    Point 7.36.77. Recommendation Technical supervisor This will necessitate some restructuring in the existing cadre along with merger of some posts which are functionally similar. The Commission, accordingly, recommends the following revised structure for the cadre of Technical Supervisors:-


    Designation
    Recommended
    pay
    scale
    Corresponding
    Pay Band &
    Designation Grade Pay
    Pay
    Band
    Grade
    Pay
    JE II ( P. Way), (Works),
    (Bridges), (Track machine),
    JE II (Mechanical),
    JE II (Electrical), JE II (Signal),
    (Tele
    5000-8000#
    PB-2
    4200
    Junior Engineer I
    5500-9000#
    PB-2
    4200
    Section Engineers
    7450-11500
    PB-2
    4600
    Senior Section Engineers
    7450-11500
    PB-2
    4600

    Point 2.2.20.para iii .The detailed fixation chart (Table 2.2.2) showing stage-wise fixation of existing employees in the revised running pay bands should be utilized in every case of fixation of pay of the concerned employees in the revised running pay bands
    Point 2.2.22 (ii) Table 2.2.2 shows stage-wise fixation of existing employees in the proposed bands w.e.f. 1.1.2006. Subject to provisions of (i) above, all the employees shall be fixed accordingly.
    Point 2.2.22 (iii) Hence, while all future increments will be on the sum of pay in the pay band and grade pay thereon, the additional increment on account of bunching at the time of initial fixation in the revised pay bands shall be computed with reference to the pay in the pay band alone. Table 2.2.2 has been prepared accordingly

    a) As per (Revised pay ) Rule 2008 Rule 7 Note 2A , the fixation of upgraded pay scale has been defined differently that the existing pay will mutillied with 1.86 nad the upgrade d grade pay shall be given & this type of fixation not being recommended by 6th PC as it is clearly indicated that fitment chat 2.2.2 will be applicable each & every case . Kindly provide the guideline of Ministry of Railways for not adopting fitment chart for each case as indicated by 6th PC recommendation. where the 6th has specifically indicated the upgradation of specific post whioch is illurated above for section engineer as they have scale of 6500-10500 but recommended pay sacle as on 1.01.2006 . so as the post of Section engineer is recommended as 7450 as on1/01/2006 then how they can fix with 6500.
    So senior member kindly b go through the 6th pC recommendation what is implemented.
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes I agree with you.

    But the larger issue is why only the employee who is "promoted" during the golden period of "2.1.2006 to 30.8.2008" should get the pre-revised upgraded scale as a birth right, while the existing employees in the promoted grade get the pay fixation as per the lower pre-revised scale and can get the benefit of stepping up only with reference to the junior employee (if any).

    Why can't all employees in the grade get the pre-revised scale w.e.f. 1.1.2006 itself, since the recommendations of the 6CPC are effective from 1.1.2006. In a scenario where there have been no promotions during the golden period, the existing employees are not eligible for stepping up of pay.

    Victor

  7. #87
    Senior Member Victor is on a distinguished road
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    I am of the view that in every case of upgradation in any office/organisation where 6CPC has been implemented, the fixation should be done as per the fitment table of the higher pre-revised scale plus GP of the higher scale/post w.e.f. 1.1.2006 or the date of option whichever is later.

    This could be possible only through a legal course of action, as I don't expect DOPT/MOF to come out with any solution on the above lines.

    Victor

  8. #88
    Junior Member bhaskar96 is on a distinguished road
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    Victor Sir

    I am not against the officers who were promoted before 1.1.06, but to fight for them also, it is required that such a clarification as per Rule 11 is needed for others (ie., promoted between 1.1.06 and 31.08.08), hence the view. Yes as you said, the MoF is doing a wait and watch, till officials of each department go to CAT and get the orders in turn. I am also eager to know the CAT case details by Accounts Officers at CAT, Mumbai. If any body have any information regarding this, the same may be discussed here.

    PVB REDDY

  9. #89
    Senior Member Victor is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhaskar96 View Post
    Victor Sir

    I am not against the officers who were promoted before 1.1.06, but to fight for them also, it is required that such a clarification as per Rule 11 is needed for others (ie., promoted between 1.1.06 and 31.08.08), hence the view. Yes as you said, the MoF is doing a wait and watch, till officials of each department go to CAT and get the orders in turn. I am also eager to know the CAT case details by Accounts Officers at CAT, Mumbai. If any body have any information regarding this, the same may be discussed here.

    PVB REDDY
    My viewpoint also includes the cases of those promoted between 1.1.2006 and 31.8.2008 as the "date of option" in such cases would be the date of promotion.

    In other words what I am trying to say is that the existing employees as on 1.1.2006 and the employees who are promoted between 1.1.2006 and 31.8.2008, should get the benefit of the fixation as per the HIGHER pre-revised scale.

    Victor

  10. #90
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    Dear spanke as you have told that the status of the cat case of SO of defence accounts will intimated by you after you received any new s from the sources.
    What is the status of the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by spenke View Post
    Dear All
    CAG has issued orders fixation of pay and stepping up of pay on the lines of pay fixation done to the Assts for the upgraded posts of Section Officers/AAO in IA&AD drawing grade pay of Rs 4800. I am unable to attch files as it exceeds the maximum limit of file size.

  11. #91
    Junior Member bhaskar96 is on a distinguished road
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    Yes Dear Spanke Sir,
    Please provide with updated status of the CAT case

  12. #92
    Junior Member spenke is on a distinguished road
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    Dear All

    The orders issued by CAG, though presently it is applicable to only the personneal of CAG of india, it should be applied to all organized accounts cadres. Similar orders will be issued by the respective heads of departments.

    In view of the above, continuation of CAT case will not arise. It is deemed that the individual who filed case from Defence account is settled.

  13. #93
    Junior Member ankitsud36 is on a distinguished road
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    Yes I agree, order should be issued by respective head of deptt.

  14. #94
    Junior Member bhaskar96 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by spenke View Post
    Dear All

    The orders issued by CAG, though presently it is applicable to only the personneal of CAG of india, it should be applied to all organized accounts cadres. Similar orders will be issued by the respective heads of departments.

    In view of the above, continuation of CAT case will not arise. It is deemed that the individual who filed case from Defence account is settled.
    Sir,

    It is right that the CAG order is applicable to only personnel working under C&AG, however, our ZAO/Pr.CCAs, though these people were also accounts personnel are of the opinion that each of the individual department should get such clarifications from Implementation Cell. Also they are saying that the orders of C&AG is not applicable in their own case ie., these people come under CGA(controller general of accounts, min.of expenditure) and hence how the same can be applicable to other departments. Hence Sir, it is requested that if any of the other departments other than CSS/C&AG, which has implemented the new fixation formula, the same may be updated, so that the readers whose cases are stuck with the ZAO/Pr.CCA will be supported.

    It is requested that all the readers may please update on the above.

    Thanking you

  15. #95
    Member susant270774 is on a distinguished road
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    Dear bhasker
    Go through the 6th CPC report item no. 7.56.9
    Insofar as other posts are concerned, it is observed that a
    clear cut parity of these posts vis-Ă*-vis those existing in the Central
    Secretariat Service has never been established in past and it is
    difficult to establish any parity even now. The proposed
    upgradations for the posts of SAO, AO will, therefore, have to be
    considered on merits. It is observed that the post of SAO constitutes
    a feeder cadre for induction into IA&AS. The entry grade for
    IA&AS is presently Rs.8000-13500 which is identical to the scale ofSAOs. Upgrading their pay scale any further will place them in a
    higher level than the entry grade of IA&AS which is a promotion
    post. This will be anomalous. The existing pay scale of SAO will,
    therefore, need to be maintained. Merger of the Fifth CPC pay
    scales of Rs.5000-8000, Rs.5500-9000 and Rs.6500-10500 will place the
    posts of Senior Auditor/Accountant and Section Officer in an
    identical pay band and grade pay even though the former are a
    feeder grade for promotion to the latter. The post of Section
    Officer would, therefore, also need to be upgraded. The post will
    consequently be placed in the next higher grade carrying grade
    pay of Rs.4800 in pay band PB-2 of Rs.8700-34800 that corresponds
    to the pre-revised pay scale of Rs.7500-12000. This upgradation
    will place the posts of Section Officer and Assistant Accounts/Audit
    Officer in an identical pay scale, thus necessitating the upgradation
    of the latter category. The posts of Assistant Accounts/Audit
    Officer and Accounts/Audit Officer should, therefore, be merged
    in the pay band PB-2 of Rs.8700-34800 along with grade pay of
    Rs.4800 that corresponds to the pre-revised pay scale of Rs.7500-
    12000. The post of Senior Accounts/Audit Officer shall be placed
    in the corresponding revised pay band PB-2 of Rs.8700-34800
    along with a grade pay of Rs.5400. The existing parity between
    posts in various organized cadres shall be maintained.
    Accordingly, the aforesaid structure being recommended in
    IA&AD will be extended in case of other organized accounts
    cadres like Controller General of Accounts, Controller General of
    Defence Accounts, Railways Accounts, Postal Accounts, Telecom
    Accounts.

    Hence as per this the CAG order shall be equally applicable to all So are adivce your superior to seek clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaskar96 View Post
    Sir,

    It is right that the CAG order is applicable to only personnel working under C&AG, however, our ZAO/Pr.CCAs, though these people were also accounts personnel are of the opinion that each of the individual department should get such clarifications from Implementation Cell. Also they are saying that the orders of C&AG is not applicable in their own case ie., these people come under CGA(controller general of accounts, min.of expenditure) and hence how the same can be applicable to other departments. Hence Sir, it is requested that if any of the other departments other than CSS/C&AG, which has implemented the new fixation formula, the same may be updated, so that the readers whose cases are stuck with the ZAO/Pr.CCA will be supported.

    It is requested that all the readers may please update on the above.

    Thanking you

  16. #96
    Member susant270774 is on a distinguished road
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    In reference to RTI application to MOF regarding DOPT U.O.no.7/7/08-CS.I (A) dt.22/12/2010 vide MOF (DOE) U O No.10/1/2009-IC dt.14/12/2009 & the process followed in MOF regarding disposal of cases received from various ministries /department

    1. Kindly provide the internal note sheet of the Implementation cell ( MOF) routed or processed on which the clarification has been issued vide MOF (DOE) U O No.10/1/2009-IC dt.14/12/2009 .
    2. Kindly provide the information regarding how the proposal/cases/RTI cases/clarification seek from Govt. Organization are processed in the Ministry of Finance received from various Ministry . The details of information like such as.
    a) The case file received from other ministry or from RTI seeker are receipt in your department & How they are distributed/ forwarded to concern section of your ministry ( kindly give the brief of activity) .
    b) The case/proposal are processed on the same file received to the ministry or the separate internal note sheet are also routed for approval of the competent authority. Kindly also mentioned whether the internal approval has been taken for the issuance of the clarification for MOF (DOE) U O No.10/1/2009-IC dt.14/12/2009.
    c) The department concern when they give the view/reply on the proposal/cases , whether they keep the records of the reply/views or not. Whether the proposal/cases records are maintained or not.
    d) If the record are not maintained then kindly provide the rule/policy guideline on basing on which the department is exempted. And also provide the information how the records are retrieved in the case of CAT/Courts cases if records are not maintained by department . The document produced by the outsider are treated as authentic in the absence of record maintained by MOF.

    I have received the reply from MOF that as regard to information sought on point no. 1 & 2 of the application it may be stated that proposal are received from several ministries /departments and after careful examination relevant file along with the comments of Deppt Expenditure thereon returned back to the concerned ministries/department. There is no centralised system to retrieve this information

    From it is inference that there is no system to supply the information outside party as per MOF under RTI . As there is no system of maintaining records by MOF as all file are come from different ministries hence they cannot retrieve any information such as there opinion/comment/circular/OM/internal Noting . There is no system of routing internal noting for taking approval for any clarification.
    As a whole they are out of RTI purview as they is no system of retrieving information

    But when the MOF itself want to find some information , how they are going to get it if there is system of maintaining records. No body can believe this the MOF (DOE) U O No.10/1/2009-IC dt.14/12/2009 it is clearly stated that it has got the approval of Joint Secretary ( Pers) . But now they are neither providing the note sheet . There is very much fishing in that note sheet .

    So senior member kindly go through this & give your comment as these is very much important to this thread started by Victor

  17. #97
    Junior Member bhaskar96 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by susant270774 View Post
    Dear bhasker
    Go through the 6th CPC report item no. 7.56.9
    Insofar as other posts are concerned, it is observed that a
    clear cut parity of these posts vis-Ă*-vis those existing in the Central
    Secretariat Service has never been established in past and it is
    difficult to establish any parity even now. The proposed
    upgradations for the posts of SAO, AO will, therefore, have to be
    considered on merits. It is observed that the post of SAO constitutes
    a feeder cadre for induction into IA&AS. The entry grade for
    IA&AS is presently Rs.8000-13500 which is identical to the scale ofSAOs. Upgrading their pay scale any further will place them in a
    higher level than the entry grade of IA&AS which is a promotion
    post. This will be anomalous. The existing pay scale of SAO will,
    therefore, need to be maintained. Merger of the Fifth CPC pay
    scales of Rs.5000-8000, Rs.5500-9000 and Rs.6500-10500 will place the
    posts of Senior Auditor/Accountant and Section Officer in an
    identical pay band and grade pay even though the former are a
    feeder grade for promotion to the latter. The post of Section
    Officer would, therefore, also need to be upgraded. The post will
    consequently be placed in the next higher grade carrying grade
    pay of Rs.4800 in pay band PB-2 of Rs.8700-34800 that corresponds
    to the pre-revised pay scale of Rs.7500-12000. This upgradation
    will place the posts of Section Officer and Assistant Accounts/Audit
    Officer in an identical pay scale, thus necessitating the upgradation
    of the latter category. The posts of Assistant Accounts/Audit
    Officer and Accounts/Audit Officer should, therefore, be merged
    in the pay band PB-2 of Rs.8700-34800 along with grade pay of
    Rs.4800 that corresponds to the pre-revised pay scale of Rs.7500-
    12000. The post of Senior Accounts/Audit Officer shall be placed
    in the corresponding revised pay band PB-2 of Rs.8700-34800
    along with a grade pay of Rs.5400. The existing parity between
    posts in various organized cadres shall be maintained.
    Accordingly, the aforesaid structure being recommended in
    IA&AD will be extended in case of other organized accounts
    cadres like Controller General of Accounts, Controller General of
    Defence Accounts, Railways Accounts, Postal Accounts, Telecom
    Accounts.

    Hence as per this the CAG order shall be equally applicable to all So are adivce your superior to seek clarification.
    Sir,

    Agree with all of your comments. I am working in I.T.Department as Inspector of Income tax. But, the ground reality is that, though my HOD gave a clear clarification that 13860 need to be implemented, the ZAO/Pr.CCA now ask that the board ie., CBDT should give a clarification. If the CBDT gives a clarification without the Implementation Cell approval, then also the ZAO says to get it approved from Implementattion Cell. Again the problem is going back to the original, that is the apprvoal from Imp.Cell. Which the Imp.Cell is not ready to give. Hence we will be back to square one. Hence, the only solution is go to CAT. So, even if I prove that the CGA has given a similar clarification, it will not solve the problem. Hence, in case, the members get across any such information that some of the other departments have implemented the 13860, please share the information.

    Thanking you

  18. #98
    Junior Member bhaskar96 is on a distinguished road
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    Dear Sir,

    I have the full file copies reg. clarification given to DoPT dtd. 14.12.2009, obtained from the other side ie., DoPT. Where in again, the issue starts with seeking 13860 benefit for the seniors who were promoted before 1.1.2006 and no calrification was sought from the Impl.Cell by the DoPT regarding benefit of 13860 for those promoted b/w 1.1.06 and 31.08.2008. However, the Impl.Cell has ratified the clarification which was never sought by the DoPT (for juniors).

    As regards to the RTI reply, I have also received the similar reply from Impl.Cell and the same was again upheld by the Ist App.Authority and also the Central Inforamtion Commission. Incase, u have filed ur case with the CIC, my sincere advise is to try to appear for the hearing, which was not attended by me. Atleast we will know, how the IAS lobby works in not giving replies under RTI also. Also most of the CIC members are from Rtd.IAS.

    Also, even if the Impl.Cell says that u are eligible for 13860, then also the accounts people will point out that ur Railway board has not issued the circular. Hence, we have to fight till our boars gives clarifications on approval from the Impl.Cell, till then we are at the mercy of our board/Impl.Cell. Only way out, is to go to CAT, in case there is a negative reply.

  19. #99
    Member susant270774 is on a distinguished road
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    Dear Bhaskar , Kindly provide me the scan copy of the file noting of the DOPT & also the RTI reply of MOF & Appllate authorty view & CIC decision, so that I can plan the further course of action .
    As I have asked the general information from MOF how the case are process, they maitained records are not , Internal noting are routed are not but they have not at all stated any thing about such thing . So you know that they violating the RTI act rule. Bit how CIC has upheld the decision of the MOF it is not at all is line with RTI act. So it is my humble request kindly provide the scan copy of the above which shall be readable. So I am going to attend personnel hearing at CIC. Email ID susant27071974@gmail.com.
    Quote Originally Posted by bhaskar96 View Post
    Dear Sir,

    I have the full file copies reg. clarification given to DoPT dtd. 14.12.2009, obtained from the other side ie., DoPT. Where in again, the issue starts with seeking 13860 benefit for the seniors who were promoted before 1.1.2006 and no calrification was sought from the Impl.Cell by the DoPT regarding benefit of 13860 for those promoted b/w 1.1.06 and 31.08.2008. However, the Impl.Cell has ratified the clarification which was never sought by the DoPT (for juniors).

    As regards to the RTI reply, I have also received the similar reply from Impl.Cell and the same was again upheld by the Ist App.Authority and also the Central Inforamtion Commission. Incase, u have filed ur case with the CIC, my sincere advise is to try to appear for the hearing, which was not attended by me. Atleast we will know, how the IAS lobby works in not giving replies under RTI also. Also most of the CIC members are from Rtd.IAS.

    Also, even if the Impl.Cell says that u are eligible for 13860, then also the accounts people will point out that ur Railway board has not issued the circular. Hence, we have to fight till our boars gives clarifications on approval from the Impl.Cell, till then we are at the mercy of our board/Impl.Cell. Only way out, is to go to CAT, in case there is a negative reply.

  20. #100
    Junior Member bhaskar96 is on a distinguished road
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    Hai,

    The CIC decision can be downloaded from :http://www.rti.india.gov.in/cic_deci...SS_M_57157.pdf

    Further as the file is big, please provide me with ur address, so that I can try to send it by post. Also I will try for PDF format.

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