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Thread: Any reply to my problem about pay fixation after promotion in PB-4

  1. #1
    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    Default Any reply to my problem about pay fixation after promotion in PB-4

    i am a central government employee in ISRO joined in 2007. i got promotion in 1-july 2010. before promotion i was in PB-3 grade(154000-391000) and my Basic pay and Grade pay was 16880 and 5400 rs. after promotion my Basic pay and Grade pay is 18240 and 6600 rs in pay ban PB-3 as per normal promotions rules.
    but in 6600 rs grade pay(in PB-3 only) minimum basic pay is 18750.
    can any body tell me that my basic pay should be 18240 or 18750? if 18750 then any OM ? please tell me

  2. #2
    Senior Member RKPATHAK is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Rs 18240 is in order

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    Senior Member tvenkatam is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamalgupta020 View Post
    i am a central government employee in ISRO joined in 2007. i got promotion in 1-july 2010. before promotion i was in PB-3 grade(154000-391000) and my Basic pay and Grade pay was 16880 and 5400 rs. after promotion my Basic pay and Grade pay is 18240 and 6600 rs in pay ban PB-3 as per normal promotions rules.
    but in 6600 rs grade pay(in PB-3 only) minimum basic pay is 18750.
    can any body tell me that my basic pay should be 18240 or 18750? if 18750 then any OM ? please tell me
    Dear friend,

    As per the existing rules the minimum entry pay is not applicable to the promotee. This is an anomaly. The NAC is yet to pronounce a final decision on this anomaly. Meanwhile, you may look for a new entrant junior on direct recruitment to the same post with the minimum entry pay of 18750, based on which your pay will also be stepped up to that of your junior.

    The reply may appear ridiculous but this is what the sixth pay commission has contemplated.

  4. #4
    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    thank you for your reply... i will check that such new entry is available or not..

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    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    sir such direct entry is available in organization but please tell me about on what basis, should i take up my case. plz reply as soon as possible

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    Senior Member sundarar is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamalgupta020 View Post
    i am a central government employee in ISRO joined in 2007. i got promotion in 1-july 2010. before promotion i was in PB-3 grade(154000-391000) and my Basic pay and Grade pay was 16880 and 5400 rs. after promotion my Basic pay and Grade pay is 18240 and 6600 rs in pay ban PB-3 as per normal promotions rules.
    but in 6600 rs grade pay(in PB-3 only) minimum basic pay is 18750.
    can any body tell me that my basic pay should be 18240 or 18750? if 18750 then any OM ? please tell me
    I agree with Shri TVenkatamji's views.

    Though parity with direct entrants is not permissible under the extant rules, at least minimum revised pay corresponding to bottom stage of the promoted post's pre-revised scale is judicious for which you may represent. Extracts from my post `Purpose of Introduction of Running Pay Band' are reproduced below for information.

    The CCS(RP) Rule No.13 indicates that:-
    One increment equal to 3% of the sum of pay in the PB and the existing GP will be computed and rounded off to next multiple of 10. This will be added to existing pay in PB. However, if the pay in the PB after adding the increment is less than the minimum of the higher PB to which promotion is taking place, pay in the PB will be stepped to such minimum.

    In one of the Circular issued by RB, it is indicated that `Sixth CPC has not prescribed minimum pay in the pay band for the purpose of fixation of pay on promotion in the case of any grade and, fixing of minimum pay in the pay band in the case of each grade pay for departmental promotees would defeat the very purpose of introduction of running pay band'.

    6th CPC Recommendation:

    "Running pay bands
    1.2.7 A major departure from the earlier Pay Commissions
    has been made in respect of pay scales. For the first time, the
    Commission is recommending running pay bands for civilian
    employees as well as for the Defence Forces. The Fourth Central
    Pay Commission had recommended running pay bands for
    Defence Forces that were implemented. The Fifth CPC,
    however, recommended specific pay scales for civilians as well
    as Defence Forces personnel. A conscious departure has been
    made in recommending running pay bands because of the
    inherent advantages of such pay scales.

    1.2.8 Since the individual pay scales have a limited span, it often
    leads to stagnation. To ease stagnation, promotional avenues
    have to be created even though no functional justification for
    higher posts may exist. Creation of additional posts in higher
    grades through cadre reviews, etc. does not always achieve the
    desired results in terms of improved career progression.
    Movement from one pay scale to another frequently leads to
    problems in pay fixation like a senior drawing lower salary vis√*-
    vis a junior. Running pay bands will address all these
    problems and also remove many of the pay scale related
    anomalies.

    1.2.9 Distinct running pay bands have been recommended for
    Government employees belonging to groups A, B and C.
    Employees in group D are to be retrained and upgraded to the
    lowest grade in pay band for group C. Within Group A, an
    additional separate running pay band has been prescribed for
    posts in the scale of Rs.18400-22400 and in higher administrative
    grade".

    You may take up the matter suitably with your Department through your representation.
    Fixing a minimum running pay for promotees is not at all required as apprehended in the RB Circular, as the same Rs.18600 in your case is existing very well. If we read carefully, the CCS (RP) Rule 13 (i), a question will arise what will be the minimum of the HIGHER PAY BAND of the band to which promotion is taking place? What about promotions happening within a particular pay band, ie. PB 3 in your case? Minimum of the Payband and Minimum of the Pay in the Pay band are not one and same. Thus, the rule requires amendment to read as minimum pay in the pay band of the promoted post. Pay in the Pay band - as per definition - Pay drawn in the running pay band, which has no relevance with a Minimum of the Pay band, be it lower pay band or higher pay band of the promoted post. One more question, could there be a minimum of the lower pay band of a post to which promotion is taking place? If you read CCS RP Rule 13(i) repeatedly, like the above so many questions may come in your mind. But there is nobody to give clarifications from the Official side.
    Only a Railway Board Circular denied saying that it would defeat the purpose of introduction. Whereas 6th CPC says differently? Who will come to rescue? You may take up with your department suitably. Best wishes.

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    Senior Member Victor is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamalgupta020 View Post
    sir such direct entry is available in organization but please tell me about on what basis, should i take up my case. plz reply as soon as possible
    Please refer to para 3 of Department of Expenditure's UO No. 10/1/2009-IC dated 14.12.2009 (http://persmin.gov.in/WriteReadData/...Steppingup.pdf). Based on this analogy you can represent to your admin.

    Victor

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    Senior Member RKPATHAK is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Dear Shri Venkat. I am really happy to see you on Gconnect discussion board after a long gap. Continue to be on board, since your advice I really find valuable

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    Senior Member sundarar is on a distinguished road
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    Shri Victorji has provided valuable input. As per the said para 3 of DOE U.O. note referred to,
    `Stepping up of pay can be considered in cases where a senior Govt. servant is drawing lesser pay than his directly recruited junior borne on the same gradation list. Otherwise, under the extant Rules, pay of those Govt. servants who were already in service on 1.1.2006 cannot be fixed w.r.t. the pay of those who joined the Govt. as direct recruits on or after 1.1.2006. The recent NAC Meeting outcome also did not accede to
    for stepping up. Moreover, it is also a fact that initial entry level pay in the pay band in r/o Direct recruits of post-2006 to posts carrying GP of Rs.1900, 4600, 4800 and 7600
    are lesser than Minimum of the Pay in the Pay Band applicable to bottom stage of the corresponding pre-revised scales.

    But, what we could not understand is - when there exists a Minimum Pay in the Pay Band corresponding to each pre-revised scale's bottom stage, whether actually fixing the same minimum Pay in the Pay band for a post-2006 promotee (in case his pay in the pay band fixed on promotion is lesser than that), would defeat the `very purpose of introduction of running pay band', particularly when the purpose is to remove the scale based anomalies?

    In spite of the above, in the instant case, in the instant case, it is said that the year of joining is 2007 and date of promotion is 1.7.2010 which means on initial recruitment in 2007, the pay in the pay band being Rs.15600 on 1.7.2007 and Rs.16230 on 1.7.2008, Rs.16880 on 1.7.2009 and Rs.18240 on 1.7.2010.
    It is a case of post-2006 promotee in comparison with a post-2006 recruitee. Thus, the provision extended vide U.O. Note referred to above.
    Subject to meeting the requirement prescribed, stepping up is permissible as Shri Victor has suggested to represent therefor.

  10. #10
    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    thanks Victor sir and sundarar sir. i have given letter as mentioned by you in last reply.{Department of Expenditure's UO No. 10/1/2009-IC dated 14.12.2009 (http://persmin.gov.in/WriteReadData/...Steppingup.pdf)}. but my admin is telling that this is a departmental order so they can not do as per some other departmental order.
    second thing sir i got my promotion with effective from 1-07-2010 from Sc 'B' to Sc 'C'. and if some body joined directly as a Sc 'C' on date 1-07-2010. then who will be the senior?

  11. #11
    Senior Member Victor is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamalgupta020 View Post
    thanks Victor sir and sundarar sir. i have given letter as mentioned by you in last reply.{Department of Expenditure's UO No. 10/1/2009-IC dated 14.12.2009 (http://persmin.gov.in/WriteReadData/...Steppingup.pdf)}. but my admin is telling that this is a departmental order so they can not do as per some other departmental order.
    second thing sir i got my promotion with effective from 1-07-2010 from Sc 'B' to Sc 'C'. and if some body joined directly as a Sc 'C' on date 1-07-2010. then who will be the senior?
    Kindly refer to para 2.4 of ‚ÄúInstructions and Guidelines on Seniority‚ÄĚ on the topic 'RELATIVE SENIORITY OF DIRECT RECRUITS AND PROMOTEES'. This is as follows:

    "2.4 The relative seniority of direct recruits and of promotees shall be determined according to the rotation of vacancies between available direct recruits and promotees which shall be based on the quota of vacancies reserved for direct recruitment and promotion respectively in the Recruitment Rules."

    Victor

  12. #12
    Senior Member sundarar is on a distinguished road
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    Default One pay scale for one cadre

    Shri Victorji has provided the information required by Shri Kamal Gupta.

    Further, from the Broad Casting Corporation of India Directorate General AIR's letter dated 17.2.2011(http://www.arteeindia.org/news&event...e-17022011.pdf - courtesy: Shri Muralikrishna in GConnect Chatter Box), it is understood that the Hon. High Court, Delhi in the case regarding One Pay Scale for One Cadre of Sub-ordinate Engineering Staff, in their Judgment dated 7.9.2010 observed as follows:

    "FOR EMPLOYEES HOLDING SAME POST AND SAME WORK AND THERE BEING NO GROUND TO CLASSIFY THE SAME INTO TWO CATEGORIES, THE PLACEMENT OF SCALES OF PAY WAS ARBITRARY.
    WHERE TWO EMPLOYEES ENTER THE CADRE FROM TWO DIFFERENT CADRES FROM TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES, IF THEY DO THE SAME WORK AND ARE SIMILARLY PLACED, THERE CAN BE NO DISCRIMINATION IN PAYMENT OF WAGES"

    The above observation is quite significant in the context of fixing of pay in the pay band for a post-2006 promotee and a post-2006 new entrant as Direct Recruit.

    As we have seen in previous posts on the subject, only certain pre-revised scales' initial entry level pay is lesser than minimum pay in the pay band corresponding to the pre-revised scale's bottom stage.

    Whatever be the good intention in introducing fixed initial entry level pay in the pay band, which is either lesser or higher than the minimum pay in the pay band corresponding to the pre-revised scale's bottom stage, as observed by the Hon. High Court, Delhi as above, by virtue of HOLDING SAME POST AND SAME WORK AND THERE BEING NO GROUND TO CLASSIFY THE SAME INTO TWO CATEGORIES, THE PLACEMENT OF DIFFERENT PAY IN THE PAY BAND ON ENTRY/PROMOTION MAY ALSO BE ARBITRARY.

    WHERE TWO EMPLOYEES ENTER THE CADRE FROM TWO DIFFERENT CADRES FROM TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES, VIZ. AS A PROMOTEE OR AS A NEW ENTRANT, IF THEY DO THE SAME WORK AND ARE SIMILARLY PLACED, THERE CAN BE NO DISCRIMINATION IN THE MANNER OF FIXATION OF PAY IN THE PAY BAND at the time of promotion/appointment to the same cadre carrying same work and being similarly placed.

    The Scale based anomalies have actually been created afresh after introduction of pay in the pay band, it seems.
    Last edited by sundarar; 20-02-2011 at 08:48 PM.

  13. #13
    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    hi friends
    my admin is not accepting departmental order as provided by shri victor {{Department of Expenditure's UO No. 10/1/2009-IC dated 14.12.2009 (http://persmin.gov.in/WriteReadData/...Steppingup.pdf}}
    then what should i do?

  14. #14
    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    dear GC members
    i want to know that is anomaly committee alive ? if alive then what they are doing?

  15. #15
    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    hi friends
    can any body tell the meaning of "Element of direct recruitment"

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    Junior Member vunnikrishnan is on a distinguished road
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    sir, Can the sealed cover procedure be continued even after rett. for macp ,in a case where criminal proceedings are pending and the court has not yet framed the charges.In macp, normal dpc prrocedure is to be followedd,including 'sealed cover'.However,even after the Principal bench CAT decision by Chairman sri.VK Bali dt.23-12-2009 in OA no.1604/2009 by RP Singh vs.Govt of NCTof Delhi.,the dopt has not issued any fresh instrns except OM dt.11/11/2010 to examine 'adhoc promotions' after 2 yrs in sealed cover cases.But it is silent on rett. cases in between before finalisation of case and that too in macp cases.
    can anybody give some details on such type of instances,case law etc.
    with regards,
    v.unnikrishnan,cochin

  17. #17
    Junior Member vunnikrishnan is on a distinguished road
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    As you may be aware,recently,the DOPt has since issued instructions that the 'senior promotee can get the junior Dr 's pay from his date of joining.In that way, if both Dr ad promotee join in same year and roster seniority is allowed,the senior promotees pay will get elevated to that of the junior DR.
    Quote Originally Posted by tvenkatam View Post
    Dear friend,

    As per the existing rules the minimum entry pay is not applicable to the promotee. This is an anomaly. The NAC is yet to pronounce a final decision on this anomaly. Meanwhile, you may look for a new entrant junior on direct recruitment to the same post with the minimum entry pay of 18750, based on which your pay will also be stepped up to that of your junior.

    The reply may appear ridiculous but this is what the sixth pay commission has contemplated.
    with regards,
    v.unnikrishnan,cochin

  18. #18
    Member kamalgupta020 is on a distinguished road
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    hi shri vunnikrishnan je
    can you send that DOPt order to me? my email ID is kamal_gupta020@yahoo.com

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