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vikramadg
15-04-2009, 05:44 PM
Can any one enlighten me as to what is the logic/reasoning/factor behind the fixation of pay of new entrants in respective grade pays and the resultant anomalies.

Eg. in PB-2

1. GP 4200 Basic Pay=13500 (5000,5500&6500)
2. GP 4600 Basic Pay=17140(7450)
3. GP 4800 Basic Pay=18150 (7500)

If the MF of 1.86 has been applied for old officers, what logic has been applied in serial no 2 and serial no 3 at above to arrive at the resultant figures? I cannot figure it out.

The problem is same in other pay bands(Obviously PB-4 excluded)

I intend to present a RTI application. However if some logic has escaped me, I shall be highly thankful to the person educating me on that aspect.

tvenkatam
15-04-2009, 08:19 PM
RTI application may not serve the purpose. Of late Ministry of finance prefers to inform that as per Section 2(f) read with Section 2(j) of the RTI Act, 2005, the public authority can only provide information which is available in any material form.

The mystery behind the infirmities in arriving at the Entry pay for direct recruits can only be unraveled by Justice Srikrishna.

vikramadg
16-04-2009, 07:20 PM
As per my understanding of RTI, Fin ministry cannot deny the same as there must have been file notings and other calculations/recommendations etc. for fixing entry scale pay.

We will demand the entire thing and are ready to explore legal options also but before that we want to make sure that there is no lacunae in our understanding. Hence all learned users of this forum may kindly provide their views about the logic applied by fin min while fixing grade pay of new entrants.

I may post a live example to showcase the resultant anomaly:

A department A hires a set of officers in cadre X in pre revised scale of 6500-2500-10500 and another department B also hires in same cadre . Pre pay commission, the entire eligibility criteria, work profile & recruitment procedure for both was same as well as the pay of the officers joining the services

Post pay commission, cadre in department B was upgraded to 7450 scale. since the definition of upgradation, according to fin min, is merely grade pay of upgraded scale, the resultant pay differential is merely Rs. 400(Difference of grade pay only) for two officials in identical stage.

Now, for a new recruit joining the post in department B where it has been upgraded to pre revised scale of 7450 corresponding to grade pay of 4600 and his entry pay is fixed at Rs. 17140. Department B issues a clarification and steps up the pay of their senior direct recruitee officers to Rs. 17140.

VOILA!!!!!!!!!!!! The difference between two identically placed officials widens obscenely and is not restricted to merely Rs. 400 i.e. difference of grade pays only.


Why a newly recruited guy is not being paid minimum of band pay plus grade pay? What is the sanctity of pay bands in this case?



Why is this happening?
Just because there is no rationale in fixation of pay for new entrants.

Is this a bold new concept?
I think it is utter rubbish and all these anomalies have arisen only because certain officials in MoF wanted to deny the real benefits of upgradation to officials.

Let us wait for some more enlightened individuals making their views public here and then we shall proceed further.

narayanan
16-04-2009, 08:31 PM
Dear friends,

Somewhere I heard that- law is nothing but codified logic. Therefore, logical reasoning should be the basis of any law.

It follows either the rule has no logical basis or else the person who could not understand the rules should be enlightend (by clarification, etc.). But no clarification came out so far.

In search of the logic behind such a formula, a could not reach into conclusion. However, I would like to share my observations so that some others can put their brain to get something reasonable.

1. The minimum of the Pay Band is taken as the Pay in the PB in respect of a new entrant in the lowest Grade Pay in that Pay Band.

Eg: In PB-1(5200- 20200) Pay in PB is 5200 (+Grade Pay to reach total pay)
In PB-2 (9300-34800) Pay in PB is 9300 (+Grade Pay to reach total pay)

2. The Pay in PB-1 of new entrant in
GP 1900 = 5200(minimum of pay band) + 3 x 210 (one increment at the minimum) is 7730
GP 2000 = 5200 ( -do- ) + 6 x 210 ( - do - ) is 8460
GP 2400 = 5200 ( -do -) + 11 x 210 ( -do- ) is 9910
GP 2800 = 5200 ( -d - ) + 16 x 210 ( -do- ) is 11360

3. The Pay in PB-2 of new entrant in
GP 4600 = 9300 ( do- ) + 8 X 405 (-do-) is 17140
GP 4800 = 9300 ( -do- ) + 10 x 405 ( -do-) is 18150

4. The Pay in PB-3 of new entrant in
GP 6600 = 15600 ( -do- ) + 5 x 630 (-do-) is 25350
GP 7600 = 15600 (-do-) = 10 x 630 ( -d0 ) is 29500

5. In PB-4 also similar logic is applied except in the case of GP 12000.

In all the cases, there exists a multiplication factor with increments without any uniformity. It appears that some thing is intended but not clear.

With regards,

Narayanan

jitendraacr
16-04-2009, 09:28 PM
Dear friends
The query raised by Shri vikramadg is really interesting. To get a solution of this puzzle, I have tried to read the complete pay commission report but sorry to find out that there is no rationale behind this logic. Though the initial pay of all pay bands is according to formula and also the tables have been formed on the basis of some formula, there is no fixed formula for fixing pay of new entrants. I have some how solve the puzzle of making tables of pay fixation corresponding to pre revised scale, though there are also some discontinuity, pay fixation of new entrants is still a puzzle for me. 6th pay commission has nowhere mentioned any rationale behind it. It seems they wanted to give more benefits to those who were in service prior to 1/1/06 in comparision to new entrants and set a fixation accordingly. Unfortunate but can not be solved even through RTI as it does not cover in this act (In my view, recommendation of commission is out of purview of this act). Court can also not help in this issue. Several court cases after 5th pay commission are proof for this where even supreme court denies to interfere in the commission report.
Jitendra

vikramadg
16-04-2009, 09:31 PM
One very beautiful & appreciable explanation by Sh. Narayan.

However I am still at a loss to understand the logic of granting varied number of increments of minimum of pay band to new entrants in different grade pays. No where is the rationale covered by any logic or explanation. The number of increments is also inconsistent and non linear.It is profound confusion every where.

vikramadg
16-04-2009, 09:36 PM
Respected Sh. Jitendraji. MoF officials owe an explanation for this. It is not a fiefdom nor a nepotist rule where one can get away with anything. It is a public policy and they HAVE to provide their version ultimately. We have to find out a way.

tvenkatam
17-04-2009, 12:37 PM
Dear friends,

Somewhere I heard that- law is nothing but codified logic. Therefore, logical reasoning should be the basis of any law.

It follows either the rule has no logical basis or else the person who could not understand the rules should be enlightend (by clarification, etc.). But no clarification came out so far.

In search of the logic behind such a formula, a could not reach into conclusion. However, I would like to share my observations so that some others can put their brain to get something reasonable.

1. The minimum of the Pay Band is taken as the Pay in the PB in respect of a new entrant in the lowest Grade Pay in that Pay Band.

Eg: In PB-1(5200- 20200) Pay in PB is 5200 (+Grade Pay to reach total pay)
In PB-2 (9300-34800) Pay in PB is 9300 (+Grade Pay to reach total pay)

2. The Pay in PB-1 of new entrant in
GP 1900 = 5200(minimum of pay band) + 3 x 210 (one increment at the minimum) is 7730
GP 2000 = 5200 ( -do- ) + 6 x 210 ( - do - ) is 8460
GP 2400 = 5200 ( -do -) + 11 x 210 ( -do- ) is 9910
GP 2800 = 5200 ( -d - ) + 16 x 210 ( -do- ) is 11360

3. The Pay in PB-2 of new entrant in
GP 4600 = 9300 ( do- ) + 8 X 405 (-do-) is 17140
GP 4800 = 9300 ( -do- ) + 10 x 405 ( -do-) is 18150

4. The Pay in PB-3 of new entrant in
GP 6600 = 15600 ( -do- ) + 5 x 630 (-do-) is 25350
GP 7600 = 15600 (-do-) = 10 x 630 ( -d0 ) is 29500

5. In PB-4 also similar logic is applied except in the case of GP 12000.

In all the cases, there exists a multiplication factor with increments without any uniformity. It appears that some thing is intended but not clear.

With regards,

Narayanan

Annexure to the DOPT OM No. AB.14017/61/2008.Estt(RR) dt 24.03.09 (link below)
http://persmin.gov.in/WriteData/CircularNotification/ScanDocument/14017_61_2008-Estt.(RR).pdf
more are less matches the pattern of Entry pay for new entrants suggested by Sri. Narayanan.

In the case of promotees from one grade pay to the other, the pay in the pay band should be fixed not less than the Entry pay meant for new entrants corresponding to the Grade pay of the post so as to eliminate anomalies of the kind mentioned by Mr. Vikram in his post above.

nps
17-04-2009, 09:32 PM
It is nice to know that there is some logic in preparing the Table in Section II of MoF Notification GSR 622 E dt 29/8/08, applicable for new entrants or ‘fresh recruits’ as per Rule 8. Unfortunately, there are no separate Tables for calculation of new Pay for new recruits who were given 1, 2 ,3, 4 or 5 advance increments!

Does any member know the Pay fixation rules for the new recruit who joined after 1/1/06 (say, 1/8/06) and given N advance increments in the pre-revised Pay Scale?

For example, AA is the new recruit appointed on 1/8/06 in the Pay Scale, 4000-100-6000 (S7) and the initial basic pay was fixed as 4500, with 5 increments. What is the new Pay?

Another example, at the higher end. BB is the new recruit appointed on 1/8/06 in the pay scale, 18400-500-22400 (S29) and the initial pay was fixed at 20900, with 5 increments. What is the new Pay?

Thanks in advance.

jitendraacr
18-04-2009, 09:32 PM
Dear nps
Conditions for grant of advance increments have not been changed. It will remain effective. The calculation of increment will however be changed and it will be calculated by taking all increments straight away rather then giving one by one i.e. for five increments, 15% increase will be added in entry pay. A clarification was given to UGC in this regard which I had read somewhere but not sure of its actual place at this moment. But fact stated by me remain same.
Jitendra

nps
19-04-2009, 12:07 AM
Dear Jitendra Sir,

For civil servants for whom MoF notification dated 29/8/08 is the applicable document, the rule for calculation of new Pay for staff who received advance increments in pre-revised pay scale (for example, AA and BB referred in the post #8 above) must be based on Rule #8 of the notification dated 29/8/08 or subsequent notifications/clarifications from the Ministry of Finance, if Rule #8 is not clear enough.

Please note that one could argue that Rule #8 is very clear indeed.
As per Rule #8, the Pay for the new recruit is 'exactly' as given in Section II for the corresponding Grade Pay. If the ‘emoluments’ based on the 'basic pay' in the pre-revised scale, which includes the advance increments, is higher than the ‘new emoluments’ based on the Pay and Grade Pay as per Section II, then the difference shall be allowed as ‘personal pay’ to be absorbed in future increments in pay!

The benefit of advance increments for the new recruit is sure to vanish in thin air!

narayanan
19-04-2009, 09:41 PM
I would like to quote the relevant portion of 6CPC Report relating to fixation of pay of direct recruits:

Para 2.2.22

(iv) In case of new recruits, fixation in the running pay band of
the group (viz. ‘A’, ‘B’, ‘C’) to which the post belongs will
be done in the following manner:-

a. Initially the fixed qualifying service prescribed in
DOPT’s OM dated 25/5/1998 (as may be amended by
the Government in future) for movement from the first
grade in the running band to the grade in which
recruitment is being made will be computed.

b. Thereafter, one increment for every year of fixed
qualifying service prescribed in the aforesaid OM of
DOPT shall be provided on the sum total of the
minimum of the running pay band and the lowest
grade pay in that pay band.

c. The pay band on joining shall be the stage so computed
in the corresponding running pay band. Additionally,
grade pay corresponding to the grade in that running
pay band shall be payable.

d. To exemplify the fitment of new recruits in any grade in
the revised pay bands, a case of direct recruitment in the
revised pay band PB-1 of Rs.4860-20200 along with grade
pay of Rs.2000 that corresponds to the pre-revised pay
scale of Rs.3200-4900 has been taken up.

- DOPT’s OM dated 25/5/1998 prescribes minimum
six years of service for promotion from the prerevised
scale of Rs.2750-4400 (being the first grade in
the running pay band) to the scale of Rs.3200-4900 (3
years from scale of Rs.2750-4400 to Rs.3050-4590 and
thereafter 3 years from the scale of Rs.3050-4590 to
Rs.3200-4900).

- Hence, 6 increments at the rate of 2.5% for each
increment – adding upto 15% - will need to be given.
The minimum pay in the revised pay band for a
person recruited to a post carrying grade pay of
Rs.2000 will therefore be Rs.5859 i.e. the minimum of
the pay (Rs.4860) attached to pay band PB-1 and 15%
(being six increments at the rate of 2.5% each) of sum
total of the minimum of the running pay band and
the lowest grade pay in that pay band.

- Grade pay of Rs.2000 will additionally be payable.
Consequently, the consolidated pay in the pay band
and grade pay, at the time of recruitment of an
employee directly recruited in the pay band PB-1
with grade pay of Rs.2000, will be Rs.7859.

I think this recommendation would have been applied in formulating the initial pay of direct recruits.

Narayanan

vikramadg
19-04-2009, 11:32 PM
Dear friends,

Somewhere I heard that- law is nothing but codified logic. Therefore, logical reasoning should be the basis of any law.

It follows either the rule has no logical basis or else the person who could not understand the rules should be enlightend (by clarification, etc.). But no clarification came out so far.

In search of the logic behind such a formula, a could not reach into conclusion. However, I would like to share my observations so that some others can put their brain to get something reasonable.

1. The minimum of the Pay Band is taken as the Pay in the PB in respect of a new entrant in the lowest Grade Pay in that Pay Band.

Eg: In PB-1(5200- 20200) Pay in PB is 5200 (+Grade Pay to reach total pay)
In PB-2 (9300-34800) Pay in PB is 9300 (+Grade Pay to reach total pay)

2. The Pay in PB-1 of new entrant in
GP 1900 = 5200(minimum of pay band) + 3 x 210 (one increment at the minimum) is 7730
GP 2000 = 5200 ( -do- ) + 6 x 210 ( - do - ) is 8460
GP 2400 = 5200 ( -do -) + 11 x 210 ( -do- ) is 9910
GP 2800 = 5200 ( -d - ) + 16 x 210 ( -do- ) is 11360

3. The Pay in PB-2 of new entrant in
GP 4600 = 9300 ( do- ) + 8 X 405 (-do-) is 17140
GP 4800 = 9300 ( -do- ) + 10 x 405 ( -do-) is 18150

4. The Pay in PB-3 of new entrant in
GP 6600 = 15600 ( -do- ) + 5 x 630 (-do-) is 25350
GP 7600 = 15600 (-do-) = 10 x 630 ( -d0 ) is 29500

5. In PB-4 also similar logic is applied except in the case of GP 12000.

In all the cases, there exists a multiplication factor with increments without any uniformity. It appears that some thing is intended but not clear.

With regards,

Narayanan

Dear Friends

Shri Narayanan has quoted a very logical section and his reasoning is praiseworthy. However our officals have muddled up these things by forgetting that period of promotion from one post to another is not same in every department and this is particularly producing terrible result in departments where posts have been upgraded.

Even if this is correct, why not spell it out in black and white for once and all?

Regards

Vikram

vikramadg
25-04-2009, 08:36 PM
No. AB.14017/61/2008-Estt. (RR)

Government of India

Ministry of Personnel Public Grievances and Pensions

Department of Personnel and Training

New Delhi

Dated: 24th March, 2009

OFFICE MEMORANDUM

Subject : Sixth Central Pay Commission's recommendations - revision of pay scales - amendment of Service Rules / Recruitment Rules The recommendations of 6th CPC have been considered by the Government and the CCS (Revised Pay) Rules2008 have since been notified on 29th August, 2008. Consequently, in palce of the pre-revised pay scales, the revised pay structure comprising the Pay Band and Grade Pay / Pay Scales has come into effect. Some of thepre-revised pay scales have been merged and some others are upgraded / likely to be upgraded. In the light of these, it has been decided that the following consequential steps to amend the existing Service Rules / Recruitment Rules shall be undertaken on a priority basis:
(i) Substituting the existing scales by the Grade Pay along with the Pay Band
The existing pay scales have to be substituted by the new pay structure (Pay Band and Grade Pay / Pay Scale)straightaway without making a reference to the Department of Personnel and Training (DOP&T) / Union Public Service Commission (UPSC). The heading of column No. 4 of the Schedule on RRs may be modified to :Pay Bandand Grade Pay / Pay Scale". In cases where deputation is also one of the methods of recruitment, the field of selectionfor deputation, which might include various grades, should also reflect the corresponding Grade Pay alongwith the Pay Band / Pay Scale, and the minimum eligibility service as per the revised guidelines, as enclosed in Annexure.
(ii) Where there is an upgradation of posts
The instructions issued by Department of Expenditure under OM No. 1/1/2008-iC dated 13 th September, 208 and DoPT OM No. AB- 14017/66/08-Estt (RR) dated 9th March, 2009 may be applied in such cases.
However, for each of the merged grades, a single set of Recruitment Rules may be formulated and notified.
(iii) Consequential cahanges
It is necessary to make consequential changes in the Recruitment Rules / Service Rules so as to prescribe eligibilityconditions with reference to the revised Grade Pay / Pay Scale. It is also necessary to review other columns of theRecruitment Rules / Service Rules, where some minimum service in a particular scale / grade is prescribed for consideration for appointment on deputation / absorption etc., keeping in view particularly the merger of a number of pre-revised scales, upgradation of some scales and the consequential changes in the minimum eligibility service in a grade.
(iv) Department Promotion Committee (DPC)
Where two or more scales have been merged, the existing DPC for the higher / highest grade will be the DPC for the mergedgrade.
(v) Regulation of regular rendered in the pre-revised scales
The revised pay structure approved includes a number of 'merged grades' with a commn grade pay and the conceptof pay bands with grade pay introduced effective from 1.1.2006. Insofar as the issue of regulation of service rendered prior to 1.1.2006 is concerned, while the general rule may be that such regular service be deemed to be service renderedin the corresponding grade pay / pay scale approved effective from 1.1.2006 or from a subsequent date, as the case maybe, this formulation cannot apply in cases where there has been merger of more than one grade into one with a single gradepay/ pay scale. Since the merger is effective from 1.1.2006 only, even notional benefits of the merger cannot be extended forperiods falling prior to 1.1.2006. A Note to the following effect may, therefore, be inserted under col.12 of the Schedule on RRs, and under relevant provisions in Service Rules, to take care of the requirements:
Note:
For the purpose of computing minimum qualifying service for promotion, the service rendered on a regular basis by an officer prior to 1.1.2006 / the date from which the revised pay structure based on the 6th CPC recommendations has beenextended, shall be deemed to be service rendered in the corresponding grade pay / pay scale extended based on the recommendations of the Commission. For purposes of appointment on deputation / absorption basis, the service renderedon a regular basis by an officer prior to 1.1.2006 / the date from which the revised pay structure based on the 6th CPCrecommendations has been extended, shall be deemed tobe service rendered in the corresponding grade pay / pay scaleextended based on the recommendations of the Commission except where there has been merger of more than one pre-revisedscale of pay into one grade with a common grade pay / pay scale, and where this benefit will extend only for the post(s) for whichthat grade pay / pay scale is the normal replacement grade without any upgradation.
2. The Recruitment Rules / Service Rules are of statutory nature. Therefore, the changes brought out by other relevantinstructions have to be incorprated in the Recruitment Rules / Service Rules by suitable amendments so that the necessarysteps like holding of DPC etc. are taken to fill the post carrying the revised Grade Pay / Pay Scale on regular basis. All the Ministries / Departments are, therefore, requested to effect necessary amendments to the Recruitment Rules / Service Rulesnotified by them after following the normal procedure of furnishing proposals to the Department of Personnel and Training andthe UPSC in the format prescribed in the general guidelines on Recruitment Rules circulated by the DOPT OM No. 14017/12/87-Estt.(RR) datded 18.3.1988, and also in consultation with the Legislative Department.
3. Ministries/Departments may initiate action to complete the review in this regard and furnish necessary amendment proposals to the DOPT and the UPSC in the case of Group A and Group B posts within six months from the date of issue of this Office Memorandum. They may also, simultaneously, take similar action in respect of Recruitment Rules for Group C and D posts, which are within their delegated powers. Appropriate action to update the Service Ruels for organized Group A, B Services,etc. shall also be taken up with DOPT / UPSC within a peroid of Six Months.
4. Hindi version will follow.

(S.J.Kumar)
Deputy Secretary to the Government of India
Annexure:

Sl.No. Grade Pay (from) Grade Pay (to) Minimum Qualifying Service for Promotion
1 1800 1900 Placement as per 6th CPC recommendations
2 1900 2000 3 Years
3 1900 2400 8 Years
4 2000 2400 5 Years
5 2400 2800 5 Years
6 2400 4200 10 Years
7 2800 4200 6 Years
8 4200 4600 5 Years
9 4200 4800 6 Years
10 4200 5400 8 Years
11 4200 6600 10 Years
12 4600 4800 2 Years
13 4600 5400 3 Years
14 4600 6600 7 Years
15 4800 5400 2 Years
16 4800 6600 6 Years
17 5400 6600 5 Years
18 6600 7600 5 Years
19 6600 8700 10 Years
20 7600 8700 5 Years
21 7600 8900 6 Years
22 8700 8900 2 Years
23 8700 10000 3 Years
24 8900 10000 2 Years
25 10000 12000 3 Years
26 12000 HAG+Scale 1 Year
27 12000 Apex scale 2 Years
28 HAG+Scale Apex scale 1 Year

As per the above memorandum and para 2.2.22, there are inconsistencies again. Any explanations?