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junior
14-12-2008, 10:39 AM
Dear friends

In Central P.W.D particularly in South Zone (Chennai PAO) is not allowing the grade pay 6600 for people who retired after 1/1/2006 from pre revised scale of 10000-15200.
1.Those people where drawing 10000-15200 scale after 2nd ACP but they were retired before getting their functional promotion.
2.Now siting the New acp guide lines the PAO is refusing the GP 6600 and allows 4800 as per new GP hierarchy.By this all the pensioners are being harassed and loose heavily on their Gratuity arrears,commutation arrears,Leave salary arrears Etc.
3.Who will be responsible for the Loss of interest money due to them and will the GOVT of India take appropriate penal action against the persons who deny the genuine entitlement.
4.The whole benefit of the 6 th CPC is only the Grade pay which is based on 40 % of the maximum of prerevised scale and weather the argument of separating the prerevised scale and GP is right ?.
It is requested that people who r working in DOPT /Min Of finance to clarrify and do the needful for the retired people and help them to get their DUE and oblige.
Friends please comment !

Thanking you

Junior

sundarar
14-12-2008, 11:06 AM
Dear Sirs,

Whether new ACP guidelines have been issued vide Office Order?
However, the new O.M. dt. 11.12.2008 in respect of post-2006 pensioners, may please be seen by Shri Junior.
Best Rgds.

sudacgwb
14-12-2008, 09:28 PM
Mr Sundararji,

If what is stated above is true then:

i) either the pension fixation is being done wrongly,

ii) the fixation done to officials/staff who got ACP after 1.1.2006 and whose salary has already fixed will be revised after the issuance of Mod. ACP OM

iii) the Modifield ACP OM will be wef from 1.1.2006 notwithstanding when it will be issued

Comments pl

ss

sundarar
14-12-2008, 10:26 PM
Mr Sundararji,

If what is stated above is true then:

i) either the pension fixation is being done wrongly,

ii) the fixation done to officials/staff who got ACP after 1.1.2006 and whose salary has already fixed will be revised after the issuance of Mod. ACP OM

iii) the Modifield ACP OM will be wef from 1.1.2006 notwithstanding when it will be issued

Comments pl

ss

Dear Sir,

i. Yes pl. The pension fixation is being done wrongly. The Last Pay drawn
whether it is after functional promotion or after ACP has to be taken into account. Even if no modified ACP gets issued at all, under the extant orders
the pension has to be arrived at based on last pay (revised) and 33 years q.s. or otherwise pro-rata.

ii. As and when Modified ACP gets issued, if the employee gets any benefit out of it prior to retirement, the benefit will go to him as per the revised order. Hence, even if pension is wrongly fixed, or any other benefits are pending, it will get regularised soon after issue of O.M. on ACP.

iii.Yes pl. It will have effect 1.1.2006 - otherwise, main purpose may not get served.

Best Regards.

badri mannargudi
14-12-2008, 11:32 PM
[QUOTE=sundarar;1838]Dear Sir,

i. Yes pl. The pension fixation is being done wrongly. The Last Pay drawn
whether it is after functional promotion or after ACP has to be taken into account. Even if no modified ACP gets issued at all, under the extant orders
the pension has to be arrived at based on last pay (revised) and 33 years q.s. or otherwise pro-rata.

ii. As and when Modified ACP gets issued, if the employee gets any benefit out of it prior to retirement, the benefit will go to him as per the revised order. Hence, even if pension is wrongly fixed, or any other benefits are pending, it will get regularised soon after issue of O.M. on ACP.

iii.Yes pl. It will have effect 1.1.2006 - otherwise, main purpose may not get served.


Dear friends,
It appears what ssjee wanted to convey has been missed by srrjee.
The way the query from Junior reads, it appears he is talking about officers who got their ACP in Pre revised scale of 10000 on or after 01.01.2006. If this assumption is correct, then the officers who could not get their functional promotion before their retirement, then naturally one has to see the grade pay in which the individual was actually placed as on 01.01.2006. Then only one can comment whether the PAO was right or wrong.
The original Querist (Juniorjee) may be pleased to give complete details such as Pay and Pre rev scale as on 31.12.2005,Actual Designation as on 31.12.2005, the department (CPWD) the date of ACP, the Designation of the Promotional post for which the individual was granted ACP, so as to enable us to proceed further in the matter.
With regards,
S.Badri

junior
15-12-2008, 11:52 AM
Dear Badriji & all friends

Thank you very much for the comments.
I would like to clarify your further queries.
1.In CPWD Junior engineers are placed in pre revised scale of5000-150 -8000
2.On 12 years completion they are placed in 6500-200-10500 scale belongs to the Assistant Engineers (gazetted gr B) now upgraded to pre revised scale 7450-225-11500 after the I ACP.(i.e) as per the cadre hierarchy.
3.Then on completion of 24 years they were placed on 2 nd ACP to 10000-325-15200 in the scale of Executive engineers as per their cadre hierarchy.
Actually the PAO is objecting the grade pay 6600 for all who were placed in the above manner and saying that they will admit only GP 4600 for 1 st ACP & 4800 for 2 nd ACP.
But due to the pressure from the working employees The PAO admitting the GP 4600/6600 for 1 ACP/2 ACP people who r serving on the plea pending clarification from implementation cell.(I don't know what clarification they want when the rules r very clear)
Now while admitting the pensioners claim who retired after 1/1/2006 but got the 2 nd ACP either before 2006 or after 2006 and date of notification of 6th Pay commission it curtails the GP to 4800 as stated sighting the Modified ACP guidelines which has been accepted by the GOVT of India.
Now all my worry & query is who will compensate the loss suffered by the retired employees who will be held responsible for the Delay.
If some individual can stall the smooth implementation of law by telling he is not convinced/clear. how to make them understand.
I here by request all our friends who share the feelings to use their contacts in DOPt/Implementation cell to issue clarrification and worked examples .

Note:
(In this department even after completion of 26 years people has to wait for their 1 st functional promotion.SO AFTER GETTING THE 2 nd ACP only a JE getting the AE post and he will retire after 10/12 years without getting EE post functionally)
Thank you

with regards

Junior

sudacgwb
15-12-2008, 01:41 PM
Mr Juniorji,

Is there any case of such a fixation after 1.1.2006 to your knowledge or it is only presumptious?

Because any promotion by way of ACP till day is as per the earlier orders. If in your dept. the ACP is effected after 1.1.2006 is by way of giving next GP (instead of GP corresponding to hierarchical post) pl do inform

for proper interpretation of your doubt!

ss

junior
15-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Dear Sudaji

One of my friend who retired on 30/04/2007 who was placed in prerevised scale of 10000-325-15200 from 28/12/2004 after getting 2 nd ACP whose pension details allowed by the PAO is as follows.Your comments Pl.

Pay on 1/01/2006 on pre revised scale= 10325
His new pay allowed by the PAO on 1/1/2006=19210+4800
And after the increment on 1/7/06 = 19940+4800
Based on the above his pension was allowed and arrears for the period of duty, paid upto 30/04/07 date of retirement.All other arrears are to be processed.
This only a example.Similarly there are lot of people stranded.
Also to say that there r cases for 2 nd ACP is pending with competent authority for the people who r qualified from 1/1/2006-28/08/2008.It awaits for clarification from DOPT!!!!!.
I am not reporting any hypothetical case or presumption.I hope this clarify all yr doubts.

with regards

junior

jitendraacr
16-12-2008, 12:00 PM
Dear Friend junior
With due respect to all GConnect members, I am to say that this is going on perhaps in every department. There is a difference in pay fixation in respect of Pensioners and in serving employees. Reasons given are also very wage. They are saying that they are doing it because recoveries can easily be made from serving employees if required at later stage due to wrong fixation of pay/Grade pay under ACP scheme while it is difficult to make recoveries in case of pensioners.
It is a fact that Government has not issued any order on modified ACP scheme yet. Grade pay in the hierarchy of Grade Pay on ACP is given on the basis of confusing statements made in Resolution dated 29.08.08. While departments are playing safe by granting lower grade pay to persons retiring after 1/1/06, it is for sure that this will be reviewed after issuance of ACP orders if it differs from the general interpretation at present.
Keeping in view the grievance in this regards, my office has sought a clarification from MoF/DoP&T regarding grant of Grade Pay to those who have already granted financial upgradation under ACP scheme before date of issue of Resolution. Anything concrete when come up, I will inform you in the forum.
with regards
Jitendra

vnatarajan
16-12-2008, 02:52 PM
Dear Mr Jitendraacr/ all

This posting is not connected to the item you are discussing- but reg. what you observed; "it is difficult to make recoveries in case of pensioners"

Technically it should be so. But then I think, in recent fixation cases, the disbursing banks etc are supposed to take an undertaking in regard to return of any over-payment!

I got my "mutilated" final pension in full- WITHOUT DEDUCTION of the COMMUTED PART for the month of Nov.08 and when I asked the Bank to verify the details correctly- they coolly informed that the over-payment had been detected immediately and so it was promptly deducted from my arrears!. BANKS are now smart enough. They dont even wait for the pensioner to realise what is happening! SO WHERE IS THE QN OF ANY DIFFICULTY IN RECOVERY FROM PENSIONERS?

vnatarajan

(No digression pl. Pl continue your topic.)

jitendraacr
16-12-2008, 03:46 PM
Dear Sir

The question of recovery is not for pension only. If a wrong pay fixation is made, it will affect all pensionary benefits including gratuity and leave encashment. Now tell me how the overpayment in this regard will be recovered from pensioners. Is there any effective tool. Your contention is true that bank can recovered overpayment on account of pension but it can not be applied for gratuity etc. This is the main reason that the departments are playing safe while making pensionary benefits calculation in absence of modified ACP order. This is the fact though disheartening for pensioners. It is for sure that any anomaly will be removed at later stage and all may get their justified dues.
with best regards
Jitendra

vnatarajan
16-12-2008, 04:43 PM
Dear Mr J

I fully agree with you. It is happening with all the older pensioner revisions also-now here- where even payments of other benefits do not arise.
It is a pity that this type of imbroglio had not been foreseen by the authorities. If the implementation OMs were without controversy, things would have been better.

Concerned PAOs/ Deptts. have to be in the picture to ensure that there are no mistakes. I am no expert but some ideas have to come out!.

vnatarajan

junior
16-12-2008, 04:50 PM
Dear friends

It is brought to notice that the CGA/dept of expenditure/min of fin is issuing instruction to settle the claims of the pensioners before 31/10/08 by OM dt 23/09/08 and pursuing the same by OM dt 24/11/08.
In spite of this, even fixing the duty pay it self in question.The implementation cell under the same min of fin is delaying the clarification.This how our co-ordination exists.
Hoping the issue to get resolved in the NEW YEAR

with regards

Junior

rohini89
20-12-2008, 09:35 AM
the officers who have retired after 1st January are entitled for grade pay as of the grade in lieu of which they were granted ACP. i.e the ACP was linked to the promotion and the officers were granted ACP and were subjected to following conditions.
1. these officers have deemed to have given their unqualified acceptance for regular promotion.
2. pay shall be fixed under the provision of F.R.22 (1)a(i) .
3. the financial benefit allowed under the ACP shall be final and no pay fixation benefit shall accrue at the time of regular promotion i.e posting against a functional post in the higher grade.
These officers for all practical financial purposes have been granted promotion to the next higher grade and their posting to the functional post will be done at the time of promotion.
the pay commission has in its recommendations has stated in para
2.2.21 (iv) Fixation in the revised pay band and grade pay thereon has been done with reference to the pre-revised pay scale in which the employee was actually drawing pay irrespective of whether he/she has been placed in such pay scale on appointment, regular promotion or financial upgradation under ACPS or any other time bound promotion scheme; upgradation of the post, etc. and therefore, those officers who have retired subsequent to 1-1-06 are entitled for fixation, arrears and then the revised fixation of pension in revised scale.However, they are not entitiledfor full pension even unless they completed 33 years .

sudacgwb
20-12-2008, 05:31 PM
Mr.Juniorji, (ref: no: 8 above)

How the PAO has arrived at 4800 as grade pay for 1000-325 scale? The Grade Pay is 6600. Pl through more light on this.

Dear BDji,

Pl look at his figures above and give your opinion as well.

ss

junior
22-12-2008, 12:51 PM
Dear Sudaji,

The PAO is arguing in the following manner.

1. The entry level of the incumbent is JE whose GP is 4200

2. The next GP in the revised PB hierarchy and also to the functional promotion post AE is 4600(They equate this to 1 st ACP)

3.Then for the 2 nd ACP they allow the next GP available in the PB Hierarchy after 4600 which is 4800 even though the GP for 10000 pre revised scale is 6600.

They confuse the existing ACP scheme and the expected modified ACP scheme and put hardships to our senior colleagues

With regards

junior.

junior
24-12-2008, 01:34 PM
Dear Friends

At last the Min of Fin /Implementation cell has given clarification Vide Lr No F.No 10/1/2008-1c dt 22 nd December 2008 and put a full stop for the ongoing tussle.

The Extract is as follows:

"The pay of the Govt. servant is to be fixed in the revised pay structure with reference to the same pre revised scale which he was holding as on 1/1/2006 that had been granted to him either on regular basis or under ACP.In so for as the operation of modified ACP is concerned upgraded pay scales under Modified ACPS can be granted only after DoPT issues instructions in this regard.Orders regarding Modified ACP scheme to be issued by DoPT may be awaited"
Wishing you all a happy New year 2009.

With regards

Junior

sudacgwb
26-12-2008, 04:56 PM
The only solution is to wait for ACP order to be issued (modified ACP). In all probability, it will not be with retrospective effect. In any case there will be revision of the pension fixed without taking the ACP into consideration.

ss