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naukar
07-12-2008, 11:20 AM
Is there any department where pay of a promotee from 5500 scale is fixed in 8000 scale on promotion/ACP. I heard some departments in Delhi have such posts?

jitendraacr
07-12-2008, 10:24 PM
Dear friend
In my view there is no such post in 5500 scale for which promotion post is in 8000 scale, in any department.

Onkar
08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
In Department of Ocean Development (now Ministry of Earth Sciences) has the post of Sr. Technical Assistant in 5500 which has the promotional avenues as Scientist B in the scale of 8000

badri mannargudi
08-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Dear fraiends,


I suggest to our beloved friends, to form a query, in three parts, first His position, then his understanding followed by his queries. This will help saving time.

I am not sure, as to in what way is the information of availability of a post in the past (5500 to 8000) is going to help our friend Naukarjee.
I am sorry if Isound a bit harsh.

With regards,
Badri

sudacgwb
08-12-2008, 08:00 PM
There are no departments where the promotional avenue exists from 5500 (STA scale) to 8000 (Jr.Cl I - Group A) scale exists. This is because this promotion skips group B post. Can Sri Onkar referring to Dept. of earth science confirm his statement? Is it based on his direct knowledge or heresay?

ss

Onkar
10-12-2008, 01:47 PM
Yes it is factual information that a group B post of STA in the scale of 5500 has promotional avenues in the scale of 8000.

Sanjay Gandhi
10-12-2008, 02:15 PM
Is there any department where pay of a promotee from 5500 scale is fixed in 8000 scale on promotion/ACP. I heard some departments in Delhi have such posts?

Yes Dear naukar

There are lot of departments where promotion from 5500-9000 scale is fixed in the scale of R. 8000-13500. There are also judgements from CAT/High Courts that promotion/ACPS should be in the existing heirarchy of the cadre.

You can contact me or just send me a message with your phone no.

Bye

badri mannargudi
10-12-2008, 03:55 PM
Dear friends,

It is surprising to to see posts which claim existence of Pre rev scale of 5500 with promotion direct to pre rev scale of 8000 (skipping 6500, 7450(but this scale may not be there in mostof the departments and 7500.). And if we read CPC Report, placement of pre rev 8000 has been treated as Direct Recruitment. (Exception: Sr Aos and likes in AG's Office).
Any way, coming to the issue inwhich I am interested, I request Shri Sanjayjee to examine as to whether the so called Judgments on Granting of next pay scale in the Hierarchy of posts in the respective department is applicable to the ACP (for the purpose of the current discussion let us forget the fact that OM on ACP is still awaited).
My experience on Legal matters, indicates that the Ratio of such Judgments can not be made applicable to the Current CCS (RP) Rules 2008 since the these Rules have set procedure to fix Grade Pay on ACP and as per these Rules the GP on ACP does not depend upon the Hierarchy of cadres in the respective Department.
With regards,
Badri

sabapathi57
21-12-2008, 09:12 AM
Dear Friend,
I am confident that as per the clarification issued by the Govt. on 13/9/08 the grade pay on fixation shall be the grade pay of the higher post, not the next grade pay as both ACP and promotion are treated alike in the clarification. Moreover, ACP rules are to considered as part of Recruitment rules. RRs continue to exist till further amended RRs comes into force. Hence it is deemed that Old ACP rules are still in force.

badri mannargudi
21-12-2008, 10:00 AM
Dear Friend,
I am confident that as per the clarification issued by the Govt. on 13/9/08 the grade pay on fixation shall be the grade pay of the higher post, not the next grade pay as both ACP and promotion are treated alike in the clarification. Moreover, ACP rules are to considered as part of Recruitment rules. RRs continue to exist till further amended RRs comes into force. Hence it is deemed that Old ACP rules are still in force.

Dear friends!
Shri Sabapatijee may kindly take note of the the Gazette Notifiction No.1/1/2008-IC, dated 29.08.2008 containing the Resolution relating to CPC Recommendations. At 45/46, it is clearly given that the Govt has accepted the recommendations as to how Grade Pay is to be fixed at the time ACP. It has been specfically mentioned that the Grade Pay of the Post shall be granted only on actual promotion to the post.
Coming to the argument that the ACP Rules are still in force, I would only say that Pay under the ACP Rules does not have any relevance to Grade Pay and this is a totally new phenomenon and as such, in my view, the argument advanced by our friend, Shri Sabapathijee does not appear to have any merit.

Having said that, there can be a ray of hope that the Modified ACPRules take care of the situation and render some remedy on the lines of the wish/confidence expressed by Shri Sabapatijee.

With regards,
Badri

naukar
23-12-2008, 08:18 AM
As per Fin.Min. clarification F.No.1/1/2008-IC Dt.13 Sept'08 - clarification No.2 first para, those on 5500 scale and next promotion scale of 8000 were on their promotion or ACP (particularly after 1st January 2006) have got the Grade Pay of Rs.5400/- from 4200/-. This is the case of Junior Wireless Operators (from Junior Engineer post) in Wireless Planning Office of Communication Ministry.

Sanjay Gandhi
23-12-2008, 12:31 PM
Is there any department where pay of a promotee from 5500 scale is fixed in 8000 scale on promotion/ACP. I heard some departments in Delhi have such posts?

Dear

Yes, there are departments/autonomous institutions where promotion from 5000 to 8000 is available. You can contact me boss. My contact No. is 9910553942.

tvenkatam
19-03-2009, 08:13 PM
Dear Members,

Happy to be among you after being a victim of misinterpretation of the CCS (Revised Pay) Rules 2008 by our Pay & Accounts Officer in the context of the accepted resolution of the Government notified by M.F. vide No. 1/1/2008-IC, dated 29.08.2008. The details are as below:

I am presently working in a Group ‘B’ post of a technical organization in the Ministry of Textiles since November 20, 1978 in the (pre-revised) scale of pay of Rs. 5500 - 9000/- without any promotion so far. Vide DoP&T, OM No 35034/1/97-Estt.(D) dated August 09, 1999 two financial up-gradations were granted to me, the first one from August 09, 1999 and the second from November 20, 2002 in the scales of pay of Rs. 8000-13500/- and Rs. 10000-15200/- respectively (in the hierarchy of promotional post in the department). As on January 01, 2006, I was drawing a basic pay of Rs. 11300/- (DNI Nov.) in the pre-revised scale of pay of Rs. 10000 - 15200/- the scale of which was personal to me under the extant ACP orders. The initial pay under the revised pay structure was accordingly fixed at Rs. 21020/- in PB-3 with Grade Pay of Rs. 6600/- (based on the Fitment Table annexed to GI. MF OM No 1/1/2008-IC dated August 30, 2008) w.e.f. January 01, 2006. The fixation of initial pay was very much in accordance with Rule 3(2) of the CCS (Revised Pay) Rules, 2008 which defines ‘the existing scale’ as the present scale applicable to the post held by the Government servant (or, as the case may be, personal scale applicable to him) as on the 1st day of January 2006. Rule 7(1)(A)(iii) further stipulates that the Grade Pay corresponding to ‘the existing scale’ will be payable in addition to the pay in the pay band.

The Pay & Accounts Officer has recently recommended to re-fix my Grade Pay as Rs. 4800/- without taking any reference to the applicable ‘existing scale’ personal to me, the applicable Pay Band and the corresponding Grade Pay to the ‘existing scale’ as expressly provided in the CCS (Revised Pay) Rules, 2008. The ingredients (extracts from GI MF No 1/1/2008-IC dated August 29, 2008) provided by him in his note as forming the basis for arriving at the Grade Pay of Rs. 4800/- do not fit into either the fitment tables or the format of ‘Statement of Fixation of Pay’ annexed to GI. MF OM No 1/1/2008-IC dated August 30, 2008. The applicable ‘existing scale’ of Rs. 10000-15200/- corresponds to PB-3 and a Grade Pay of Rs. 6600/- in the revised pay structure can not be altered to the disadvantage of the employee. For the reasons stated herein, the suggestion to re-fix my Grade Pay lacks the support of the relevant rules and are, therefore, not enforceable.

Further, the suggestion to re-fix the Grade Pay at Rs. 4800/- (being the second higher stage in the hierarchy of Grade Pay in the new pay structure with reference to the Grade Pay of Rs. 4200/- attached to the post), emanates from the fact that the relevant recommendations relating to the ACP Scheme of SCPC vide GI MF No 1/1/2008-IC dated August 29, 2008 have since stand accepted by the Government. It will, however, have to be noted that the recommendations relating to the ACP Scheme by SCPC assumed effect only from January 01, 2006 and therefore, will only have effect on up-gradations granted on or after January 01, 2006 and even for such effect, the present ACP Scheme (still in force) announced vide Order dated August 09, 1999 will need to be suitably modified by the Government. The Pay & Accounts Officer is ignorant of this aspect and till date persists on his insistence to re-fix the pay as per his understanding. Pending re-fixation of the pay, the submitted tour TA bills and LTC bills (journey performed by air) have been returned un-passed with the directive to revise (downward) the bills as per eligibility based on the Grade Pay of Rs 4200/- to be revised.

I am not the only person affected by this un-warranted action of PAO. There are so many field offices in the region with many officials in each office holding similar posts of pay scale/promotion cadre. All of them are facing the same problems. Representations to the Internal Audit wing, appellate administrative authorities, etc., are yet to evoke any response. All of us are eagerly awaiting a favourable response from all the sources to whom the representations have been addressed.

Incidentally, I have also referred the issue for comments of Swamysnews, Chennai who were kind enough to ask me to refer to the Ministry of Finance OM F.No. 1/1/2008-IC dated 24.12.2008 wherein (vide clarification at Sl. No.3) it was, inter alia, stated that “Government servants who have been granted financial upgradation to a higher scale under the ACP Scheme will be granted the grade pay corresponding to the higher pre-revised pay scale that was granted to them under ACP”. This statement having formed a part of the clarifications regarding pay fixation of existing Group ‘D’ employees, the PAO refuses to accept that this provision would apply universally to all employees of Government.

The esteemed members of this forum are requested to post their considered views on this subject.

sundarar
19-03-2009, 10:31 PM
Dear Sir,

If the original pay scale prior to 1st ACP was 5500-9000, then the 1st ACP ought to be in the next higher grade of 6500-10500 and the second one shall be(keeping in view the GP granted now) Rs.7500-12500 and the grade pay applicable for the said pay scale is Rs.4800. It is not clear, how from 5500-9000 the first ACP in 8000-13500 had been given and subsequently the next higher grade thereof.

Best Regards
Sundarar.

badri mannargudi
19-03-2009, 11:45 PM
Dear Sir,

If the original pay scale prior to 1st ACP was 5500-9000, then the 1st ACP ought to be in the next higher grade of 6500-10500 and the second one shall be(keeping in view the GP granted now) Rs.7500-12500 and the grade pay applicable for the said pay scale is Rs.4800. It is not clear, how from 5500-9000 the first ACP in 8000-13500 had been given and subsequently the next higher grade thereof.

Best Regards
Sundarar.

Dear SRRjee,
In certain departments, it appears, in the hierarchy of certain posts, the successive posts carried Pay Scales of 5500,8000 and 10000. It further appears that the original querist's plight falls under such category.

By the way, the case requires a deeper study to find whether or not there exists some remedy. It may take a couple of days for me to have a look into the case. Nevertheless, I have given my own case herein below;-
I joined as Inspector of Central Excise in 1992 and the post was fixed in the pre rev scale of 5500 as on 1.1.1996. Our posts were upgraded to Pre Rev Scale 6500 - with effect from 21.04.2004.
In other words, as on 31.12.2005 I was in Pre Rev scale of 6500. By virtue of ACP in 2004, My Pay Scale became 7500. (that I became a Superintendent in October 2007 is not relevant here)
On 1.1.2006, my department fixed my pay in the Pay Band PB2 with Grade Pay of 4800 and NOT REPEAT NOT WITH GRADE PAY OF 4600. If the Querist's PAO's view holds good, my Grade pay should have been fixed at only 4600. Needless to say that Our department also has a PAO and our Pay Fixation has also been subjected to scrutiny by the learned officer from A.G's Office. If my PAO has no objection to my Grade Pay of 4800 as on 1.1.2006, prima facie, there is no reason why and how the Querist's PAO should hold a different view.
As sought by me at appropriate place herein above. kindly give me some more time before I come up with more on the subject.
With regards,
Badri.

badri mannargudi
20-03-2009, 12:06 AM
My dear TVenkatamjee,

Your post (the proverbial (Misfortune) Post # 13 in the current thread) made a sad reading.

It is beyond our imagination that there could be a department where a person joins as a GR B Officer and remains in the same post - without getting a single promotion for over 30 years.
Apart from all the worries about Grade pay (pl see my previous post in the instant thread), I pray to God for enabling you to get the functional promotion that is long due.
With regards,
Badri

tvenkatam
20-03-2009, 10:57 AM
Thank you very much for your gesture. As I have already stated, in my post I am not the only person to be meted out this fate. There are scores of people in our department, being technically qualified, stagnating in the same post lacking adequate promotional avenues. There are seniors to me waiting to be retired in the post of entry. I am better placed compared to others in my cadre since I had spent a significant part of my service on deputation in the higher posts. Promotion now will mean accompanied transfer to far off location. After 17 years of service in various locations in the north, only now I am almost settled in my home town and waiting to retire peacefully. I do not, therefore, wish to be promoted.

So far as the hierarchy of the post, in our cadre, as you had rightly said, successive promotions are in the posts carrying the scales of 5500, 8000 and 10000. The entry grade of 5500 is filled 100% by direct recruitment. The promotional posts are filled 25% by promotion and 75% by open competition.

My basic pay as on January 01, 2006 was 11300 in the scale of pay of 10000-15200. This is an unquestionable fact. No one including our PAO has any doubt about it. The issue now is how to fix the initial pay in the revised pay structure under the CCS (Revised Pay) Rules, 2008.

Please take your own time, examine the extant rules and comment on the action of our PAO. More than 100 people at various levels in our department are eagerly awaiting a solution to this problem. Thanks again in anticipation.

tvenkatam
20-03-2009, 12:42 PM
Dear Sir,

If the original pay scale prior to 1st ACP was 5500-9000, then the 1st ACP ought to be in the next higher grade of 6500-10500 and the second one shall be(keeping in view the GP granted now) Rs.7500-12500 and the grade pay applicable for the said pay scale is Rs.4800. It is not clear, how from 5500-9000 the first ACP in 8000-13500 had been given and subsequently the next higher grade thereof.

Best Regards
Sundarar.

Dear Mr. Sundararji,

Thank you for the reply. I suppose that the initial pay as on 01.01.2006 of an employee under the revised pay structure is to be fixed in accordance with the CCS (Revised Pay) Rules, 2008. Is there any provision under these Rules for fixation of pay in the pay band and grade pay of a person based on his original scale of pay prior to ACP? For a person drawing a pay of Rs. 11300 in the scale of 10000-15200 as on 01.01.2006, what will be the corresponding (i) Pay band, (ii) pay in the band and (iii) Grade pay. Do you support the view that the basic pay of Rs. 11300 and the scale of pay of 10000-15200 prevailing as on 01.01.2006 would need to be revised downwards based on the ‘modified ACP Scheme’ with retrospective effect and if ‘yes’, does CCS (Revised Pay) Rules, 2008 or any other ‘Rules’ governing fixation of pay in the revised pay structure provide for such revision?

Regards.

Sanjay Gandhi
20-03-2009, 01:06 PM
Dear Members,


There are many departments where promotion from 5500-9000 scale is fixed in the scale of R. 8000-13500. There are also judgements from CAT/High Courts that promotion/ACPS should be in the existing heirarchy of the cadre.

In our department that is IPFT the posts which are in the scale of Rs. 5500-9000 are being promoted to Rs. 8000-13500 by promotion or ACPS.

My e-mail ID is sanjaygandhi2@rediffmail.com

Sanjay Gandhi

tvenkatam
20-03-2009, 01:37 PM
Dear Members,

Reference is invited to the Ministry of Finance OM F.No. 1/1/2008-IC dated 24.12.2008 wherein (vide clarification at Sl. No.3) it was, inter alia, stated that “Government servants who have been granted financial upgradation to a higher scale under the ACP Scheme will be granted the grade pay corresponding to the higher pre-revised pay scale that was granted to them under ACP”. This statement formed a part of the clarifications regarding pay fixation of existing Group ‘D’ employees. Link to this is as under:
http://persmin.gov.in/WriteData/CircularNotification/ScanDocument/1_1_2008-IC.pdf

What does the statement effectively mean? Is this opinion of Ministry of Finance limited to Group ‘D’ employees only?

Please post your comments.

Thanks & Regards,

tvenkatam

badri mannargudi
20-03-2009, 05:27 PM
[QUOTE=tvenkatam;3215]Thank you very much for your gesture. As I have already stated, in my post I am not the only person to be meted out this fate. There are scores of people in our department, being technically qualified, stagnating in the same post lacking adequate promotional avenues. There are seniors to me waiting to be retired in the post of entry. I am better placed compared to others in my cadre since I had spent a significant part of my service on deputation in the higher posts. Promotion now will mean accompanied transfer to far off location. After 17 years of service in various locations in the north, only now I am almost settled in my home town and waiting to retire peacefully. I do not, therefore, wish to be promoted.

So far as the hierarchy of the post, in our cadre, as you had rightly said, successive promotions are in the posts carrying the scales of 5500, 8000 and 10000. The entry grade of 5500 is filled 100% by direct recruitment. The promotional posts are filled 25% by promotion and 75% by open competition.

Dear friend,
I remember to have read the in this Forum as follows;-

As per letter dated 30.10.2008 issued by the Under Secretary (IC-II), CPIO, Department of Expenditure, Implementation cell replying to the application of Sh. Rajiv kumar Shrivastava under RTI Act, point No. 2 of which reads as under:- “As on 01.01.2006, a Govt. servants pay will be fixed in scale in which he was placed on that day irrespective of the fact that the scale was granted to him on regular promotion or under ACP.”
It appears you can also seek information under RTI Act, by mentioning the details of your case, too.
With regards,
Badri

tvenkatam
20-03-2009, 06:29 PM
Dear Sir,

I am really indebted to the information furnished by you. I have already sought information (two different applications from two persons) under the RTI Act from the Implementation Cell of Dept. of Expenditure requesting for opinion on the related Rules extracts of which were reproduced elsewhere in this thread. Now I shall prefer an application under RTI Act seeking solution specifically to my problem also.

Thanks & Regards,

tvenkatam

sundarar
20-03-2009, 07:04 PM
"So far as the hierarchy of the post, in our cadre, as you had rightly said, successive promotions are in the posts carrying the scales of 5500, 8000 and 10000. The entry grade of 5500 is filled 100% by direct recruitment. The promotional posts are filled 25% by promotion and 75% by open competition"
-tvenkatam.

Dear Shri TV,

When the above is the case, question of granting Rs.4800 grade pay to you does not arise at all. As on 1.1.2006, your admissible grade pay is Rs.6600 and the pay in the pay band will be 1.86 of your pre-revised basic as on 31.12.2005, ie. in the 10000 scale. There is no justification for the action by your accounts. You may go ahead for remedial measures. You can also write to the Anomaly Committee (Staff side).

Best Regards,
Sundarar.

tvenkatam
20-03-2009, 09:57 PM
Dear Mr. Sundararji,
Thanks for the information.
Regards,
tvenkatam