View Full Version : PB3 vs PB4 or Army vs Civilian?

18-10-2008, 08:28 AM
Lately I have been seeing, with mounting dismay, unseemly army vs civilian comments in GConnect’s Chatterbox. Each sector is doing its best within the confines of its environment. Civilians have to work with politicians on a day to day basis. Army is insulated from this.

Also, Army is recruited and very well trained for what they do, whether on the border or elsewhere. It is what they have to do. Army has to take rapid decisions under fire where any decision is better than no decision.

Civilians are required to consider every possible angle, predict political consequences and then arrive at a decision that does least harm to the maximum number of people. This is a slow process. The outlook of army and civilians are necessarily different for the different roles each plays in society.

The recruitment process for army seeks physical endurance and quick thinking under trying situations. That for the Civil Services looks for deep analytical ability and communication skills. Both test leadership qualities. Few qualifying for one would do well in the other.

It is a large world with many opportunities for all. All of us in this forum are in responsible positions. Each of us has their own role to play in shaping the destiny of our countrymen. The nation needs us both. The army cannot handle what the civilians do and vice versa. That's the truth.

These are trying times. The army needs to concentrate on the terrorist problem and threats from jealous and desperate neighbours. Civilians on the economic crisis and the social upheaval exhibited in the villages where demands of urbanisation are impinging upon centuries old ways of life leading to violent outbreaks.

The nation can ill afford a civil-military disconnect at this, or any other, time.

What the nation needs is for both services to be free from corruption, for both service personnel and civilians to work responsibly with dedication and not to betray the trust our countrymen have reposed in us.

So friends, please, please stop bickering with each other. Respect differences whether in religion, or regions, or the work we do. Respect each other and surely as there is a God, the world will respect us; not as an army man or bureaucrat but as an honest and proud Indian.

Jai Hind!

03-11-2008, 08:35 AM
Dear Shreekumar

I dont know what profession you belong to but I found your blog thought provoking . It contains many wrong presumptions and takes for granted many things. You seem to suggest that soldier and Babu are two diffrent breeds and one cannot do the other's job. Then why do you call the Army every day to do the job of the inefficient babu and the policewala whose failure is taken as a routine by the society. Everyday and everywhere the Army is doing the dirty work of babus and you say Army cannnot do what the civilians can do. The civilians are not even caplable of pulling out children from holes dug up by them and frantically ring up the Army. Get real pal. Then you imply that Army's work requires physical work and quick thinking and babus require analylical ability. Who has given you such wrong ideas. The war requires ananlytical ability of highest order and has to be planned decades in advance. I also want to tell you that leadership qualities in the Army officers make them fit for all kind of jobs. A large number of short service officers who left army have been very successful Babus. One of them was a Defence Secretary of late. A very large number of Army officers are in the top echlons of the corporate. Indian people hold an army officer in a very high regard and believe he can do anything . They do not have the Same opinion about the Babus and that disturbs the babus and that is why they keep short changing the army officer in all possible ways. They have a terrible inferiority complex ; this is the only reason for their effort to lower the status of the Army Officer consistingly. Otherwise tell me brother do you have any rationale for lowering the warrant of precedece in favour of bumbling and corrupt babus who have deligently ensured that only ten paisa of the Indian rupee reaches the public he has taken oath to serve. But all this is in open now and will change. The people of India will not tolerate such deliberate humiliation of the forces. Please do come back to me on this. And yes let me tell you that army officers are doing very well in politics also- one of them is the CM.There is a party of Ex Soldiers in the offing too. In USA atleast four army officers have held the offices of the President of the USA. So your theory of segregation of the two talents is incorrect and motivated to say the least. Warm regards. my email---18ashok@gmail.com. rsvp

17-11-2008, 08:22 AM
This is a typical example of the "we are the best and we know it and what do we care what you un-uniformed and hence uninformed and indisciplined lot think" attitude.

I know that the army is called out in emergencies. More because they have been provided with the trained manpower and sophisticated equipment which the civil administration lacks.

I'll leave it at this and let the forum members arrive at their own conclusions.

Sorry for the delayed response, I was out of town.

17-11-2008, 09:39 PM
Dear Shreekumar

I have not said we are the best. I only refuted erroneous concept that which postulated that soldiers and Babus are almost genetically different. This is what was the core theme of your write up. And I refuted by giving you concrete and analytic reasoning. ( Though you seem to infer that analytical reasoning is a domain of civilians only. You have tried to balanced and reasonable and almost paternal in your arguements but your lack of knowledge about warfare came out too clearly and I had to comment on it. Soldiers have been very trusting of the Babus till now but the horror stories about slimyness and small mindedness of the Babus including Ms Sushma Nath which are coming out in open are dismaying to the least and lay bare not the patriotic and analytic mind of the Babus but a sinister and mindlessly anti soldier and anti national bend of mind which is difficult to comprehend. It affects the synergy of all national resources and must be corrected. You seem to be attributing too altruistic qualities to the Babus. How I wish it was like this. I pray to people like you to set things on course. Warm regards. And Yes !! It is difficult to understand war and soldiering by reading about it. Please do try and spend sometime in the forward area and better still try and join the Army or let your progeny take to soldiering. I assure you you will be much better informed and you will contribute to the national effort much more honestly and effectively.

18-11-2008, 10:18 PM
Dear Shreekumar

Thanks for your reply. But you miss the point that I made. I gave pointed reply to many of your somewhat illogical assumptions which almost divide soldiers and civilians in two different genetic streams. Now how can you push this so far particulary when you are supposed to have an analytical mind. You have not touched upon anything of substance that I wrote. You have again distorted the core of my arguement and have alluded to me that I am saying that we are superior. I have only refuted your opinion that soldiers cant do what civilians can do. As regards the honesty and analytical and administrative ability of Babus we are just getting to know how cunningly( I would say rather foolishly this time) has Mrs Nath tried to met out injustice to the brave soldiers by hoodwinking the political leadership. This time the Babus have been caught in this silly game. With such overwhelming evidence of deciet and treachery how do you, my brother, inspire confidence in the fighting soldier. If you still do not understand what I am saying I think you are too naive or are a die hard Babu who think they are the rulers and rest everyone is a servant. Actually for the acid test just walk out of your house now and ask the opinion in this regard from the first man that you see on the street. He will clearly tell you what the nation thinks about the ability of soldiers and babus and who should be paid how much. That should end the arguement. Warm Regards. Please do not mind me using this word " Babu" . They have earned it over last sixty years by their misdeeds and even the media uses it for the Chief Secy.(pardon me for the chief secy it is Bade Babu)

19-11-2008, 10:44 PM
Dear friends

Being a senior member, I want to say something-

The basic purpose of this forum is perhaps to share our views and to solve problems of each other in a right manner with respectful approach to each of us. Comments made on bureaucracy viz-a-viz defence personnel is somewhat turned in a little battle where every one wants to prove oneself superior then another. These arguments though geniune can not solve any problem. We must respect each govt employee in what ever capacity he is working. Every one is doing his job what ever he is asked to do by his authority/Governemnt. All types of people can be find at every work place whether it is in bureaucracy ot it is in Defence forces. Every one can not be good or bad.
If armed forces people have found any words in the forum HURTING to them, We must say sorry to them but we expect the same from them. These arguments should be left now.

20-11-2008, 05:40 PM
Jitendraacr!!!! Point taken. The matter ends. Regards

21-11-2008, 10:32 PM
Dear friend Ashok

I am realy thankful as you ends the matter but do not end to visit the forum. Your views/comments will be beneficial for many of us. So do not go away from us.

24-11-2008, 09:13 PM
Dear Jitendra

I must confess that many of my metaphors and expressions were less than polite in my previous posts and I must apologise for these. Also I must say that there is a great churning going on in India and particularly in the mind of the defence forces personnels which must be understood by all Indians. Defence forces are not inherited and thet belong to the whole nation and are vital for survival of the nation in the hostile environement. The peculiarities of the defence forces must be understood by all. The chest of the soldier which swells up with pride and goads him on to go into sure death is full of hot air of the good wishes of his countrymen. He has believe that the nation is behind him and belongs to him. That his countrymen can ditch him or stab him in the back has never ever crossed his mind. You take away this trust of the soldier and you have a dead soldier of no use to the nation.Dear friends!! please believe me if the way the defence forces are being browbeaten and taken for granted continues the defence force will simply disappear. I am aghast at the wide chasm in the perception of the civilian friends and the soldiers. This divide must be bridged for well being of our great nation. And we all must think why should a class derive pleasur out of humilating soldiers and making them beg for what can and should be given to them with gratitude. There should be serious introspection on this issue. This is my perception and I key it down in the national interest. Let us stop scoring browny points. Please pardon me if I have been wrong . These are my views and I am prepared to justify each word of it. Warm regards to all